brilliant cheers Paddy i will have a look on there, just coming back with a quick update tried finding the "Hollandia" and i think you are correct but i can not find an exact match but some very close even the shape of the lions tail i had to give in on that (fo r now), you were bang on with the Srilankan (see attached) so thanks again for the pointers i will be continuing the quest in spare time and hopefully have updates in the future, I see you found them on the link (only just noticed the text by the link!) thanks again