CGS - A customer-facing business?

[Debbie 58]

I've yet to find an engraved coin that has been slabbed .....phew!

[Peter 615]

I've yet to find an engraved coin that has been slabbed .....phew!

I've chucked a few into concrete foundations at work. They Cray's called that slabbing.

[Peckris 579]

Quite an interesting stat from Bill that CGS have entombed 25000 coins (I know of 2 that have been liberated ). It is hardly a mammoth amount is it?

I am also quite suprised at the amount of coverage given to the subject by Coin News. As an advertiser and a dealer it is slightly irksome to me that so much coverage is given to an area that is so small in the UK market as to be almost insignificant? It begs the question "is there some form of business connection?"

Sorry to be blunt Bill but that is also the question I would pose to you due to your over-energetic approach to what is essentially somebody elses business.

Forgive the suspicious mind but it comes from being an ex-cop.

As to Mike, well if slabbing adds so much value to a coin why is it that none of the dealers in the UK submit our coins for slabbing to make vast profits? You are talking about auction prices realised by the sister company of the slabbing firm. Hardly impartial or unbiased is it?

ARGENTUMANDCOINS

I tell you why (IMO!) but you won't like it:

1, if the dealers send their coins for CGS grading, most (not all but most) of their UNC coins

will be returned as EF, some as AUNC but some also as VF55. The same applies to EF,

VF coins etc. Just ask Bill who already submitted around 2000 coins, or Divemaster. I have exactly the same experience. As

NUMISMATIST said : quote "In fact I would say MOST Large Auctioneers and MOST large

dealers, many being BNTA members seriously overgrade these days". I can confirm this

from my own experience. Now when I am more familiar with CGS grading it takes me just

few seconds on the coin show to see that the offered UNC coin would never ever make

even a basic UNC80 grade... So instead of making vast profits they would suffer vast

losses.

2, lot (not all) of coin dealers are not interested in a transparent coin market. With slabbed

coin you can’t buy the coin as about EF and sell it as almost UNC and make large profit.

As one of many examples – just recently I have noticed Victorian YH Halfcrown , sold in recent DNW

auction (where described as GEF and sold for around 800,- pounds) on Coin Dealer

website - described as choice mint state with price tag of 1500,- pounds. So either the

vendor or new buyer was ripped off. DNW is happy with their profit, dealer is very happy with

his profit and the buyer??? This is happening all the time and you have to realise that not all

coin collectors are as experienced as lot of members on this forum and that it takes years to

learn. In the meantime you rely on coin dealers and if you are not experienced enough you

buy choice mint state halfcrown for 1500,- …. I wish CGS was around when I started

collecting 20 years ago.

3, I do not understand your comment about “auction prices realized by the sister company of the

slabbing firmâ€. Are you suggesting that London Coins is bidding against London Coins just to

spend 500,- pounds on a coin worth 50, - pounds to show the public how good it is to have coin

slabbed??? Yes they offer lot of slabbed coins in their auctions but if I want to sell slabbed coin

I would certainly ask London Coins because I am sure that collectors who are interested in slabs are

keeping eye on their auctions.

I think your points 1. and 2. have a lot of merit Mike. There have always been apples in the dealer barrel that range from the rotten to the "over-enthusiastic", but a lot too - as you say - who are straight.

But your point 3 could use some research on your part if you don't mind me saying. A company that slabs very ordinary coins and then (possibly) gets an employee to put them up on eBay with a lot of hype and vastly inflated prices (or bidding), to show the effect of slabbing on prices... well, I don't wish to be libellous, but it goes on.

[Peter 615]

I'm aware of a US punter buying ColinCookes finest George V1 farthings getting them slabbed by PCGS.The coin is still worth a couple of quid even if it was delivered between Kelly Brookes arse cheeks at a time when Mrs Peter was out.

[argentumandcoins 70]

I'm aware of a US punter buying ColinCookes finest George V1 farthings getting them slabbed by PCGS.The coin is still worth a couple of quid even if it was delivered between Kelly Brookes arse cheeks at a time when Mrs Peter was out.

That's a slab I would pay good money to crack open....

[mike 5]

Quite an interesting stat from Bill that CGS have entombed 25000 coins (I know of 2 that have been liberated ). It is hardly a mammoth amount is it?

I am also quite suprised at the amount of coverage given to the subject by Coin News. As an advertiser and a dealer it is slightly irksome to me that so much coverage is given to an area that is so small in the UK market as to be almost insignificant? It begs the question "is there some form of business connection?"

Sorry to be blunt Bill but that is also the question I would pose to you due to your over-energetic approach to what is essentially somebody elses business.

Forgive the suspicious mind but it comes from being an ex-cop.

As to Mike, well if slabbing adds so much value to a coin why is it that none of the dealers in the UK submit our coins for slabbing to make vast profits? You are talking about auction prices realised by the sister company of the slabbing firm. Hardly impartial or unbiased is it?

ARGENTUMANDCOINS

I tell you why (IMO!) but you won't like it:

1, if the dealers send their coins for CGS grading, most (not all but most) of their UNC coins

will be returned as EF, some as AUNC but some also as VF55. The same applies to EF,

VF coins etc. Just ask Bill who already submitted around 2000 coins, or Divemaster. I have exactly the same experience. As

NUMISMATIST said : quote "In fact I would say MOST Large Auctioneers and MOST large

dealers, many being BNTA members seriously overgrade these days". I can confirm this

from my own experience. Now when I am more familiar with CGS grading it takes me just

few seconds on the coin show to see that the offered UNC coin would never ever make

even a basic UNC80 grade... So instead of making vast profits they would suffer vast

losses.

2, lot (not all) of coin dealers are not interested in a transparent coin market. With slabbed

coin you can’t buy the coin as about EF and sell it as almost UNC and make large profit.

As one of many examples – just recently I have noticed Victorian YH Halfcrown , sold in recent DNW

auction (where described as GEF and sold for around 800,- pounds) on Coin Dealer

website - described as choice mint state with price tag of 1500,- pounds. So either the

vendor or new buyer was ripped off. DNW is happy with their profit, dealer is very happy with

his profit and the buyer??? This is happening all the time and you have to realise that not all

coin collectors are as experienced as lot of members on this forum and that it takes years to

learn. In the meantime you rely on coin dealers and if you are not experienced enough you

buy choice mint state halfcrown for 1500,- …. I wish CGS was around when I started

collecting 20 years ago.

3, I do not understand your comment about “auction prices realized by the sister company of the

slabbing firmâ€. Are you suggesting that London Coins is bidding against London Coins just to

spend 500,- pounds on a coin worth 50, - pounds to show the public how good it is to have coin

slabbed??? Yes they offer lot of slabbed coins in their auctions but if I want to sell slabbed coin

I would certainly ask London Coins because I am sure that collectors who are interested in slabs are

keeping eye on their auctions.

I think your points 1. and 2. have a lot of merit Mike. There have always been apples in the dealer barrel that range from the rotten to the "over-enthusiastic", but a lot too - as you say - who are straight.

But your point 3 could use some research on your part if you don't mind me saying. A company that slabs very ordinary coins and then (possibly) gets an employee to put them up on eBay with a lot of hype and vastly inflated prices (or bidding), to show the effect of slabbing on prices... well, I don't wish to be libellous, but it goes on.

Thank you for your comments. You may be right and I am not going to advocate something I know very little about. Saying that I am not going to do any research in that respect - I rather invest my time in my hobby. I got involved in the discussion just because I have noticed that some of the members (which are usually strongly against slabbing) have very poor knowledge about the subject and I also felt that some of the comments towards CGS are unfair (when compared with my personal experience). Otherwise I am primarily interested in coin collecting - not slabbing! Around X-mas I have posted picture of George IV Halfcrown (my X-mas present, slab partially visible) and first reply was "Nice coin, shame it is in plastic coffin". I don't get it, I would never ever comment post from other member "Nice coin, shame it is not in a nice slab". Hope you know what I mean.

[mike 5]

Bill & Mike, as stated above I can see both the pros and the cons of slabbing. Ultimately each individual will make their own choice, but I think it good for the UK market that we have our own TPG, for those that wish to use it.

Anyway, and more importantly, I'm sure I speak for most in saying that we are really pleased to have you here. Whilst some will disagree with you on the slabbing issue, there are many other lively discussions going on daily. I hope you will both stick around and join in!

Thank you, Accumulator. It is nice to have a kind reply (for change ). M.

[Coinery 926]

Quite an interesting stat from Bill that CGS have entombed 25000 coins (I know of 2 that have been liberated ). It is hardly a mammoth amount is it?

I am also quite suprised at the amount of coverage given to the subject by Coin News. As an advertiser and a dealer it is slightly irksome to me that so much coverage is given to an area that is so small in the UK market as to be almost insignificant? It begs the question "is there some form of business connection?"

Sorry to be blunt Bill but that is also the question I would pose to you due to your over-energetic approach to what is essentially somebody elses business.

Forgive the suspicious mind but it comes from being an ex-cop.

As to Mike, well if slabbing adds so much value to a coin why is it that none of the dealers in the UK submit our coins for slabbing to make vast profits? You are talking about auction prices realised by the sister company of the slabbing firm. Hardly impartial or unbiased is it?

ARGENTUMANDCOINS

I tell you why (IMO!) but you won't like it:

1, if the dealers send their coins for CGS grading, most (not all but most) of their UNC coins

will be returned as EF, some as AUNC but some also as VF55. The same applies to EF,

VF coins etc. Just ask Bill who already submitted around 2000 coins, or Divemaster. I have exactly the same experience. As

NUMISMATIST said : quote "In fact I would say MOST Large Auctioneers and MOST large

dealers, many being BNTA members seriously overgrade these days". I can confirm this

from my own experience. Now when I am more familiar with CGS grading it takes me just

few seconds on the coin show to see that the offered UNC coin would never ever make

even a basic UNC80 grade... So instead of making vast profits they would suffer vast

losses.

2, lot (not all) of coin dealers are not interested in a transparent coin market. With slabbed

coin you can’t buy the coin as about EF and sell it as almost UNC and make large profit.

As one of many examples – just recently I have noticed Victorian YH Halfcrown , sold in recent DNW

auction (where described as GEF and sold for around 800,- pounds) on Coin Dealer

website - described as choice mint state with price tag of 1500,- pounds. So either the

vendor or new buyer was ripped off. DNW is happy with their profit, dealer is very happy with

his profit and the buyer??? This is happening all the time and you have to realise that not all

coin collectors are as experienced as lot of members on this forum and that it takes years to

learn. In the meantime you rely on coin dealers and if you are not experienced enough you

buy choice mint state halfcrown for 1500,- …. I wish CGS was around when I started

collecting 20 years ago.

3, I do not understand your comment about “auction prices realized by the sister company of the

slabbing firmâ€. Are you suggesting that London Coins is bidding against London Coins just to

spend 500,- pounds on a coin worth 50, - pounds to show the public how good it is to have coin

slabbed??? Yes they offer lot of slabbed coins in their auctions but if I want to sell slabbed coin

I would certainly ask London Coins because I am sure that collectors who are interested in slabs are

keeping eye on their auctions.

I think your points 1. and 2. have a lot of merit Mike. There have always been apples in the dealer barrel that range from the rotten to the "over-enthusiastic", but a lot too - as you say - who are straight.

But your point 3 could use some research on your part if you don't mind me saying. A company that slabs very ordinary coins and then (possibly) gets an employee to put them up on eBay with a lot of hype and vastly inflated prices (or bidding), to show the effect of slabbing on prices... well, I don't wish to be libellous, but it goes on.

Thank you for your comments. You may be right and I am not going to advocate something I know very little about. Saying that I am not going to do any research in that respect - I rather invest my time in my hobby. I got involved in the discussion just because I have noticed that some of the members (which are usually strongly against slabbing) have very poor knowledge about the subject and I also felt that some of the comments towards CGS are unfair (when compared with my personal experience). Otherwise I am primarily interested in coin collecting - not slabbing! Around X-mas I have posted picture of George IV Halfcrown (my X-mas present, slab partially visible) and first reply was "Nice coin, shame it is in plastic coffin". I don't get it, I would never ever comment post from other member "Nice coin, shame it is not in a nice slab". Hope you know what I mean.

I think your approach is entirely sensible, Mike, we are all first and foremost collectors and enthusiasts of all things coin! Speaking only for myself, I like both slabbed and raw, it really depends on my reason for buying it, or slabbing it.

I have broke out around a dozen coins altogether, the 1951 6d I recently purchased from Ms Lockett is already out the slab, and waiting in a 2x2 alongside my other G6 coins for an eventual upgrade!

It seems to me that this subject ultimately requires tolerance and sensitivity of preferences. It has bounced back and forth for many months, with very little change in anyone's opinion, leading me to believe nothing can be said to convert an intelligent individual one way or the other?

Great debate, yet again, but the usual stale mate I think?

[Peter 615]

Mike

We are not just raw coin monkies.I will challenge CGS /PCGS/NCGS/ANACS I have been collecting for over 40 years and my knowledge on my subject can blow TPG's.There is a place for the investors but if you want a good deal you don't buy a plastic slab.

Edited February 27, 2013 by Peter

[Peter 615]

However

I have bought from CC in USA Proud slabs for a price I could accept.They are still in the slabs but .....Mrs Peter wants her hedge trimmed.

[Peckris 579]

However

I have bought from CC in USA Proud slabs for a price I could accept.They are still in the slabs but .....Mrs Peter wants her hedge trimmed.

You have a razor shears?

[Coinery 926]

However

I have bought from CC in USA Proud slabs for a price I could accept.They are still in the slabs but .....Mrs Peter wants her hedge trimmed.

You have a razor shears?

I've got an 18" Husqvarna!

[Bill Pugsley 0]

The fall back is the guarantee of the grading company. CGS are unequivocal in their guarantee - if the coin is 'wrong' or it suffers in the capsule (and so long as the capsule is not damaged by outside influence) they will pay up the value of the coin. Having graded nearly 25,000 that is a serious undertaking.

Are you sure about the CGS policy 'or if it suffers in the slab'? That seems like commercial suicide to me because, as you already mentioned, other entombed coins have historically been seen to suffer, and they don't seem to be doing anything differently, at least mechanically speaking!

The long-term gaurantee of CGS's product, must be a concern, not only to the collector, but also to CGS themselves (if they are genuinely offering a life-time gaurantee on entombed state), as they must realise the potential risks of a claim like that? I can't believe they'd get the backing of an insurance company on such a point.

I guess, as numismatist has said LTD, LTD, LTD!

Also, Bill, I just wanted to say again that it's very kind of you to come on here and present the case of CGS, and also that I don't want you to think there is any kind of witch hunt in my statements, I fully appreciate you are just another collector, greatly interested in coins and the slabbing process.

We all have 'enjoyed' different experiences with our hobby. Perhaps I am too passionate in my belief in CGS and their services but I still respect those who hate slabs. I think I personally went through the emotions that most have when it comes to considering the slabbing of coins. I loathed them, I then tolerated them and now I want my UK collection to be CGS graded!

When I noted that certain US slabbed coins had verdigris on them (my observation about looking at ten pennies and finding eight with 'green bits') I am fairly sure that the verdigris was there before the coin was graded and encapsulated. CGS reject coins with verdigris and if a rejected coin is encapsulated, they are labelled with a yellow rejection label (more anon).

I was invited to see the CGS process and I was confident enough in what I saw to have now submitted over 2,000 coins to them (yes that is a lot of cost but I believe worth it!). The guarantee is in place from CGS but based upon my experience I will be surprised if there are many (if any) claims against them. I am only human and I may be wrong but having noted my experience of putting my own coins in capsules and getting it wrong (at my cost) - I think I will trust them for now.

Why encapsulate rejected coins is something I once asked? The US grading Companies have been doing it for a while but the labels are like a normal label and may have a description such as 'AU DETAILS OBVERSE SCUFFED'. Some people have been caught out buying such coins thinking they had 'passed grading'. CGS opted for a yellow label to make it distinctive. The key here is what if you have a rare (or very scarce) coin that would normally be rejected by CGS. For example an 1862 half penny with a letter by the lighthouse, but the coin is very worn and physically battered. You may be want to sell it and I am sure there will be a buyer for it as a raw coin. However, if sold as a genuine coin which may have otherwise graded as fine but has other problems - I believe it would get a premium price. I recently had two such coins with the letter C by the light house returned in yellow ticketed CGS slabs and will be selling one of them in due course - I will let you know whether my expectation on improved price was met or not.

[Bill Pugsley 0]

Quite an interesting stat from Bill that CGS have entombed 25000 coins (I know of 2 that have been liberated ). It is hardly a mammoth amount is it?

I am also quite suprised at the amount of coverage given to the subject by Coin News. As an advertiser and a dealer it is slightly irksome to me that so much coverage is given to an area that is so small in the UK market as to be almost insignificant? It begs the question "is there some form of business connection?"

Sorry to be blunt Bill but that is also the question I would pose to you due to your over-energetic approach to what is essentially somebody elses business.

Forgive the suspicious mind but it comes from being an ex-cop.

As to Mike, well if slabbing adds so much value to a coin why is it that none of the dealers in the UK submit our coins for slabbing to make vast profits? You are talking about auction prices realised by the sister company of the slabbing firm. Hardly impartial or unbiased is it?

ARGENTUMANDCOINS

I tell you why (IMO!) but you won't like it:

1, if the dealers send their coins for CGS grading, most (not all but most) of their UNC coins

will be returned as EF, some as AUNC but some also as VF55. The same applies to EF,

VF coins etc. Just ask Bill who already submitted around 2000 coins, or Divemaster. I have exactly the same experience. As

NUMISMATIST said : quote "In fact I would say MOST Large Auctioneers and MOST large

dealers, many being BNTA members seriously overgrade these days". I can confirm this

from my own experience. Now when I am more familiar with CGS grading it takes me just

few seconds on the coin show to see that the offered UNC coin would never ever make

even a basic UNC80 grade... So instead of making vast profits they would suffer vast

losses.

2, lot (not all) of coin dealers are not interested in a transparent coin market. With slabbed

coin you can’t buy the coin as about EF and sell it as almost UNC and make large profit.

As one of many examples – just recently I have noticed Victorian YH Halfcrown , sold in recent DNW

auction (where described as GEF and sold for around 800,- pounds) on Coin Dealer

website - described as choice mint state with price tag of 1500,- pounds. So either the

vendor or new buyer was ripped off. DNW is happy with their profit, dealer is very happy with

his profit and the buyer??? This is happening all the time and you have to realise that not all

coin collectors are as experienced as lot of members on this forum and that it takes years to

learn. In the meantime you rely on coin dealers and if you are not experienced enough you

buy choice mint state halfcrown for 1500,- …. I wish CGS was around when I started

collecting 20 years ago.

3, I do not understand your comment about “auction prices realized by the sister company of the

slabbing firmâ€. Are you suggesting that London Coins is bidding against London Coins just to

spend 500,- pounds on a coin worth 50, - pounds to show the public how good it is to have coin

slabbed??? Yes they offer lot of slabbed coins in their auctions but if I want to sell slabbed coin

I would certainly ask London Coins because I am sure that collectors who are interested in slabs are

keeping eye on their auctions.

I think your points 1. and 2. have a lot of merit Mike. There have always been apples in the dealer barrel that range from the rotten to the "over-enthusiastic", but a lot too - as you say - who are straight.

But your point 3 could use some research on your part if you don't mind me saying. A company that slabs very ordinary coins and then (possibly) gets an employee to put them up on eBay with a lot of hype and vastly inflated prices (or bidding), to show the effect of slabbing on prices... well, I don't wish to be libellous, but it goes on.

Thank you for your comments. You may be right and I am not going to advocate something I know very little about. Saying that I am not going to do any research in that respect - I rather invest my time in my hobby. I got involved in the discussion just because I have noticed that some of the members (which are usually strongly against slabbing) have very poor knowledge about the subject and I also felt that some of the comments towards CGS are unfair (when compared with my personal experience). Otherwise I am primarily interested in coin collecting - not slabbing! Around X-mas I have posted picture of George IV Halfcrown (my X-mas present, slab partially visible) and first reply was "Nice coin, shame it is in plastic coffin". I don't get it, I would never ever comment post from other member "Nice coin, shame it is not in a nice slab". Hope you know what I mean.

I think your approach is entirely sensible, Mike, we are all first and foremost collectors and enthusiasts of all things coin! Speaking only for myself, I like both slabbed and raw, it really depends on my reason for buying it, or slabbing it.

I have broke out around a dozen coins altogether, the 1951 6d I recently purchased from Ms Lockett is already out the slab, and waiting in a 2x2 alongside my other G6 coins for an eventual upgrade!

It seems to me that this subject ultimately requires tolerance and sensitivity of preferences. It has bounced back and forth for many months, with very little change in anyone's opinion, leading me to believe nothing can be said to convert an intelligent individual one way or the other?

Great debate, yet again, but the usual stale mate I think?

Wow! Where do I start? Perhaps with me. I am a collector of coins! But like many collectors I have an eye on what my collection is worth (I want one of every variety of all denominations and years that I collect but unless I win the 'big' Euro million Lottery I have next to no chance of achieving that goal). I also want to have a collection where each coin will be labelled from the 'Bill Pugsley Collection' and hopefully have the provenance passed down through future collectors.

I pay the commercial price to get my coins CGS graded (because I think it is great value) which includes having paid £49.99 each for some of my coins. I do not get any graded free and I wait the same periods as all other people to get my coins back (and I always want them back in days not weeks or months).

Slowly but surely some collectors/investors have begun to appreciate the consistent quality of CGS graded coins and I have found less resistance to buying CGS coins than a few years ago.

My benefit of promoting or supporting CGS is the more converts to their service the more likely my CGS collection is going to improve in value. Yes, I do meet with CGS managers from time to time (normally when I am dropping off more coins for grading) and we may discuss improvements to the CGS web site or aspects of coin collecting. I am certainly not 'paid' for anything I may do and I always pay for my submissions.

My professional background is managing and advising businesses, with a leaning to sales and marketing. I used my professional experience to create, with some logistical only assistance from CGS, the CGS Forum. I personally paid for the domain and I host it on one of my own servers. It has been an education trying to build a website and run a forum (and I am getting better at it). I also proposed that we have meetings of the CGS Forum to coincide with the London Coin Auctions. We are holding the fourth meeting this coming weekend.

When I chaired the first meeting of the CGS Forum we got around to discussing collection values and I explained that I believed that if I had to realise some cash quickly that I would reasonably expect to get 50% of the CGS valuation of the coins I had graded by CGS. One member of the audience said he would give me 60% and he was immediately outbid by someone else offering 70%. Maybe it was all in light hearted good humour. But then again they may have been serious. Yes my collection is varied but it has some really lovely pieces, each in a CGS capsule. I simply support CGS because I have the time and the inclination (and I want to improve the value of my collection!).

As an aside, where I achieve 'hall of fame status' for aspects of my CGS graded collection CGS will re-encapsulate the coins that have achieved that status with a label stating 'The Bill Pugsley Collection'. So one of my goals is attainable.

OK - that out of the way let me try and address why only 25,000 coins graded? When CGS was first launched they had in place the team to be able to grade thousands of coins a week. After an initial flurry this reduced to a trickle and some of the staff had to be laid off. Rather than closing the business it was continued with the same original goals but at a significantly reduced capacity. It has done limited marketing and has largely relied upon word of mouth recommendations. It is gaining traction but unless it starts to receive significant numbers of coins each and every week it will continue to manage the business it does. From my understanding if London Coins had not supported it it would not be here today (the Australian Coin Grading Service stopped grading coins about two years after it was launched for similar problems).

I was very circumspect in the article I first had published (maybe it was the second) that dealt with collecting CGS graded coins about grading assessments by dealers. I think I remarked that at least one Auction House (now more than one - and I was referring to DNW then) rarely suggest a coin is UNC but go for EF or better as a description. I keep careful records of what coins I buy, who from, price paid, date and original suggested grade. I can now add this data to my collection on the CGS website and download a copy of the CGS data with mine for my own local use. Some dealers and auction houses have been consistently good but others have seriously over graded. I am aware that some dealer do use the CGS service for really good quality coins because they know that an UNC85 or higher grade from CGS will actually boost the sales price.

The Bellamey collection of half crowns recently sold by DNW was from an Irish based collector who was delighted with the value he got from the sale (I have known the collector for a number of years). The fact that someone who bought the coins and is now offering them at a higher grade and price is all frequently quite common.

There are one or two eBay sellers who have nothing to do with CGS or London Coins listing CGS Graded coins and have buy-now prices higher than those proposed by CGS. Anyone can register to the CGS site and check values for grades against coin types. A number of CGS coin sellers on eBay always provide the UIN (the Unique Identification Number) allocated by CGS - so it is easy to check the value of the site. I have bid more than the CGS proposed value on a number of coins sold at coin auctions and on eBay, sometimes winning and sometimes not. I make my own assessment of value and if I believe the CGS value is low I will pay more.

I do know the person referred to who sells from his personal collection. He is not an employee of London Coins. At one time I was his most prolific buyer because the prices in his earlier auctions were low. I have bought less and less recently as I seem to get out bid by people prepared to pay more than I am for a specific CGS coin. I was the person who paid £32 for a Currency Churchill Crown (mad you may say) because it was graded as UNC82. How many truly UNC Churchill Crowns have you come across (I have handled at least 100 in the last forty years and none were as good as the one I bought).

At one time London Coin Auctions were the only company to offer CGS graded coins. I have since seen them in DNW, Lockdales and I am sure many other auction houses will follow in time.

I once thought I knew how to grade coins. I am now far from being expert but I am more critical than I have ever been in the past, purely because of my experience of CGS grading. When CGS reject what you think (and was told by the seller) is a lustrous UNC 1869 bronze penny because of corrosion and you take up a magnifying glass and see it for yourself, you conclude that you wish you had known about CGS years before you started using their service.

[Rob 3,002]

The basic problem for both sides in this debate is a lack of trust, irrespective of whether you are for or against. The only indisputable advantage of a slab is that you can drop it without damaging the coin.

Pro-slabs will argue that individuals do not grade consistently whereas a slab will provide a grade based on a defined scale. Correct, except that the slab grade is assigned by similarly fallible individuals (who wouldn't be trusted to grade a raw coin) and as a consequence, all TPGs suffer from grading inconsistency. On the odd occasion that I have bought slabs blind, about half would not have been purchased had I seen them beforehand. You are not guaranteed to get the same people grading all the coins of the same type. In the case of a CGS graded coin, I bought blind a 3/- bank token graded UNC 85 as I thought it would be ok for the collection. Silly me, or perhaps I should have realised that the coin was only 85% unc as it said on the label - couldn't live with it. Needless to say, I moved it on and am still looking to fill the gap. Although to be fair, that was the only CGS slab I've had a serious issue with which compares very favourably with the stream of misattributions and crap grading that emanates from across the pond.

A raw coin can be fully examined, including the edge, which is only partially visible/invisible with a slab. Therefore to protect myself, I will always err on the side of caution and tend to mark down the price a little in order to alleviate nasty surprises when the coin is cracked out. MS65 George I halfpenny, George III proof shilling, Victoria halfcrown....etc. There are a few thousand pounds at current prices in this list and I don't like being taken for a ride. The argument that the coins were slabbed for protection and were not meant to be cracked out should be irrelevant as defects are defects whether visible or not. Although I have not had a cracked out CGS coin with hidden edge defects, it would be irrational to assume that the working practices are any different because we are all human.

I too find the relationship between LC and CGS all a little too cozy. When you have an auction, the catalogue has sections for UK graded coins and foreign graded coins. The MS63, MS64 etc coins will often be graded 'we grade as EF or gEF'. It might inspire a little more confidence if they applied the same critical eye to UK graded coins. OK, I accept that's an uphill task when the same vested interests are involved, but surely that is at the core of the issue of integrity and independence? For the same people to grade, sell at auction and produce 'current price' lists for slab grades which are typically twice the going rate for raw coins is simply too cozy to do anything other than raise suspicion. If you would willingly pay twice the Spink price for a coin in a slab with a certain number, nobody is stopping you, but a reality check might be in order because you are now buying the slab in the case of registry sets rather than the coin. Competing for the highest average score may have nothing to do with aesthetics and could lead to a selection of dogs.

In the case of CGS, population reports are a bit misleading given the relatively low number of coins slabbed to date (compared to the US TPGs) and can lead to misrepresentation of rarities for the 'investor'. We can't hold everyone's hand, but we can expect an objective opinion to be given. Are they trying to promote slabs as 'investments' in an advisory capacity or just as a straightforward sales pitch? The first could come unstuck legally, whilst the second as always should carry a health warning. As I haven't seen any note on the website to the effect that they are regulated by the FSA or anyone else, you have to assume that the second applies but with the caveat that they are promoting investing in coins on the LC website. This could potentially be very dodgy territory.

Ultimately nothing has changed in the two camps and as always it is each to their own. If you are happy with slabs, just carry on as before. For those that don't like them, nobody forces you to buy.

Edited February 28, 2013 by Rob

[Bill Pugsley 0]

Quite an interesting stat from Bill that CGS have entombed 25000 coins (I know of 2 that have been liberated ). It is hardly a mammoth amount is it?

I am also quite suprised at the amount of coverage given to the subject by Coin News. As an advertiser and a dealer it is slightly irksome to me that so much coverage is given to an area that is so small in the UK market as to be almost insignificant? It begs the question "is there some form of business connection?"

Sorry to be blunt Bill but that is also the question I would pose to you due to your over-energetic approach to what is essentially somebody elses business.

Forgive the suspicious mind but it comes from being an ex-cop.

As to Mike, well if slabbing adds so much value to a coin why is it that none of the dealers in the UK submit our coins for slabbing to make vast profits? You are talking about auction prices realised by the sister company of the slabbing firm. Hardly impartial or unbiased is it?

ARGENTUMANDCOINS

I tell you why (IMO!) but you won't like it:

1, if the dealers send their coins for CGS grading, most (not all but most) of their UNC coins

will be returned as EF, some as AUNC but some also as VF55. The same applies to EF,

VF coins etc. Just ask Bill who already submitted around 2000 coins, or Divemaster. I have exactly the same experience. As

NUMISMATIST said : quote "In fact I would say MOST Large Auctioneers and MOST large

dealers, many being BNTA members seriously overgrade these days". I can confirm this

from my own experience. Now when I am more familiar with CGS grading it takes me just

few seconds on the coin show to see that the offered UNC coin would never ever make

even a basic UNC80 grade... So instead of making vast profits they would suffer vast

losses.

2, lot (not all) of coin dealers are not interested in a transparent coin market. With slabbed

coin you can’t buy the coin as about EF and sell it as almost UNC and make large profit.

As one of many examples – just recently I have noticed Victorian YH Halfcrown , sold in recent DNW

auction (where described as GEF and sold for around 800,- pounds) on Coin Dealer

website - described as choice mint state with price tag of 1500,- pounds. So either the

vendor or new buyer was ripped off. DNW is happy with their profit, dealer is very happy with

his profit and the buyer??? This is happening all the time and you have to realise that not all

coin collectors are as experienced as lot of members on this forum and that it takes years to

learn. In the meantime you rely on coin dealers and if you are not experienced enough you

buy choice mint state halfcrown for 1500,- …. I wish CGS was around when I started

collecting 20 years ago.

3, I do not understand your comment about “auction prices realized by the sister company of the

slabbing firmâ€. Are you suggesting that London Coins is bidding against London Coins just to

spend 500,- pounds on a coin worth 50, - pounds to show the public how good it is to have coin

slabbed??? Yes they offer lot of slabbed coins in their auctions but if I want to sell slabbed coin

I would certainly ask London Coins because I am sure that collectors who are interested in slabs are

keeping eye on their auctions.

I think your points 1. and 2. have a lot of merit Mike. There have always been apples in the dealer barrel that range from the rotten to the "over-enthusiastic", but a lot too - as you say - who are straight.

But your point 3 could use some research on your part if you don't mind me saying. A company that slabs very ordinary coins and then (possibly) gets an employee to put them up on eBay with a lot of hype and vastly inflated prices (or bidding), to show the effect of slabbing on prices... well, I don't wish to be libellous, but it goes on.

Thank you for your comments. You may be right and I am not going to advocate something I know very little about. Saying that I am not going to do any research in that respect - I rather invest my time in my hobby. I got involved in the discussion just because I have noticed that some of the members (which are usually strongly against slabbing) have very poor knowledge about the subject and I also felt that some of the comments towards CGS are unfair (when compared with my personal experience). Otherwise I am primarily interested in coin collecting - not slabbing! Around X-mas I have posted picture of George IV Halfcrown (my X-mas present, slab partially visible) and first reply was "Nice coin, shame it is in plastic coffin". I don't get it, I would never ever comment post from other member "Nice coin, shame it is not in a nice slab". Hope you know what I mean.

I think your approach is entirely sensible, Mike, we are all first and foremost collectors and enthusiasts of all things coin! Speaking only for myself, I like both slabbed and raw, it really depends on my reason for buying it, or slabbing it.

I have broke out around a dozen coins altogether, the 1951 6d I recently purchased from Ms Lockett is already out the slab, and waiting in a 2x2 alongside my other G6 coins for an eventual upgrade!

It seems to me that this subject ultimately requires tolerance and sensitivity of preferences. It has bounced back and forth for many months, with very little change in anyone's opinion, leading me to believe nothing can be said to convert an intelligent individual one way or the other?

Great debate, yet again, but the usual stale mate I think?

Wow! Where do I start? Perhaps with me. I am a collector of coins! But like many collectors I have an eye on what my collection is worth (I want one of every variety of all denominations and years that I collect but unless I win the 'big' Euro million Lottery I have next to no chance of achieving that goal). I also want to have a collection where each coin will be labelled from the 'Bill Pugsley Collection' and hopefully have the provenance passed down through future collectors.

I pay the commercial price to get my coins CGS graded (because I think it is great value) which includes having paid £49.99 each for some of my coins. I do not get any graded free and I wait the same periods as all other people to get my coins back (and I always want them back in days not weeks or months).

Slowly but surely some collectors/investors have begun to appreciate the consistent quality of CGS graded coins and I have found less resistance to buying CGS coins than a few years ago.

My benefit of promoting or supporting CGS is the more converts to their service the more likely my CGS collection is going to improve in value. Yes, I do meet with CGS managers from time to time (normally when I am dropping off more coins for grading) and we may discuss improvements to the CGS web site or aspects of coin collecting. I am certainly not 'paid' for anything I may do and I always pay for my submissions.

My professional background is managing and advising businesses, with a leaning to sales and marketing. I used my professional experience to create, with some logistical only assistance from CGS, the CGS Forum. I personally paid for the domain and I host it on one of my own servers. It has been an education trying to build a website and run a forum (and I am getting better at it). I also proposed that we have meetings of the CGS Forum to coincide with the London Coin Auctions. We are holding the fourth meeting this coming weekend.

When I chaired the first meeting of the CGS Forum we got around to discussing collection values and I explained that I believed that if I had to realise some cash quickly that I would reasonably expect to get 50% of the CGS valuation of the coins I had graded by CGS. One member of the audience said he would give me 60% and he was immediately outbid by someone else offering 70%. Maybe it was all in light hearted good humour. But then again they may have been serious. Yes my collection is varied but it has some really lovely pieces, each in a CGS capsule. I simply support CGS because I have the time and the inclination (and I want to improve the value of my collection!).

As an aside, where I achieve 'hall of fame status' for aspects of my CGS graded collection CGS will re-encapsulate the coins that have achieved that status with a label stating 'The Bill Pugsley Collection'. So one of my goals is attainable.

OK - that out of the way let me try and address why only 25,000 coins graded? When CGS was first launched they had in place the team to be able to grade thousands of coins a week. After an initial flurry this reduced to a trickle and some of the staff had to be laid off. Rather than closing the business it was continued with the same original goals but at a significantly reduced capacity. It has done limited marketing and has largely relied upon word of mouth recommendations. It is gaining traction but unless it starts to receive significant numbers of coins each and every week it will continue to manage the business it does. From my understanding if London Coins had not supported it it would not be here today (the Australian Coin Grading Service stopped grading coins about two years after it was launched for similar problems).

I was very circumspect in the article I first had published (maybe it was the second) that dealt with collecting CGS graded coins about grading assessments by dealers. I think I remarked that at least one Auction House (now more than one - and I was referring to DNW then) rarely suggest a coin is UNC but go for EF or better as a description. I keep careful records of what coins I buy, who from, price paid, date and original suggested grade. I can now add this data to my collection on the CGS website and download a copy of the CGS data with mine for my own local use. Some dealers and auction houses have been consistently good but others have seriously over graded. I am aware that some dealer do use the CGS service for really good quality coins because they know that an UNC85 or higher grade from CGS will actually boost the sales price.

The Bellamey collection of half crowns recently sold by DNW was from an Irish based collector who was delighted with the value he got from the sale (I have known the collector for a number of years). The fact that someone who bought the coins and is now offering them at a higher grade and price is all frequently quite common.

There are one or two eBay sellers who have nothing to do with CGS or London Coins listing CGS Graded coins and have buy-now prices higher than those proposed by CGS. Anyone can register to the CGS site and check values for grades against coin types. A number of CGS coin sellers on eBay always provide the UIN (the Unique Identification Number) allocated by CGS - so it is easy to check the value of the site. I have bid more than the CGS proposed value on a number of coins sold at coin auctions and on eBay, sometimes winning and sometimes not. I make my own assessment of value and if I believe the CGS value is low I will pay more.

I do know the person referred to who sells from his personal collection. He is not an employee of London Coins. At one time I was his most prolific buyer because the prices in his earlier auctions were low. I have bought less and less recently as I seem to get out bid by people prepared to pay more than I am for a specific CGS coin. I was the person who paid £32 for a Currency Churchill Crown (mad you may say) because it was graded as UNC82. How many truly UNC Churchill Crowns have you come across (I have handled at least 100 in the last forty years and none were as good as the one I bought).

At one time London Coin Auctions were the only company to offer CGS graded coins. I have since seen them in DNW, Lockdales and I am sure many other auction houses will follow in time.

I once thought I knew how to grade coins. I am now far from being expert but I am more critical than I have ever been in the past, purely because of my experience of CGS grading. When CGS reject what you think (and was told by the seller) is a lustrous UNC 1869 bronze penny because of corrosion and you take up a magnifying glass and see it for yourself, you conclude that you wish you had known about CGS years before you started using their service.

I forgot to mention something on Coin News. They welcome well presented articles from any and all collectors, dealers etc that contain news or information about our hobby. I have had four articles published so far - two dealing with CGS and two dealing with unrelated topics. They would like articles that will be interesting to their readers and actually delayed one of mine because it mentions CGS and they did not want to be seen to be favouring one organisation. So get writing if you do not favour CGS or slabbing generally - I am sure that they would be happy to publish alternative views on the matter!

[jaggy 528]

Just wanted to add a word of appreciation for what has been - so far - a well argued, civil and most interesting discussion.

[Rob 3,002]

Why encapsulate rejected coins is something I once asked? The US grading Companies have been doing it for a while but the labels are like a normal label and may have a description such as 'AU DETAILS OBVERSE SCUFFED'. Some people have been caught out buying such coins thinking they had 'passed grading'. CGS opted for a yellow label to make it distinctive. The key here is what if you have a rare (or very scarce) coin that would normally be rejected by CGS. For example an 1862 half penny with a letter by the lighthouse, but the coin is very worn and physically battered. You may be want to sell it and I am sure there will be a buyer for it as a raw coin. However, if sold as a genuine coin which may have otherwise graded as fine but has other problems - I believe it would get a premium price. I recently had two such coins with the letter C by the light house returned in yellow ticketed CGS slabs and will be selling one of them in due course - I will let you know whether my expectation on improved price was met or not.

Ironically, this is one example where the TPG input is likely to have little weight. People who are looking and willing to spend serious amounts for letter by lighthouse halfpennies are rarely, if ever, not up to speed on the variety.

[Peckris 579]

We all have 'enjoyed' different experiences with our hobby. Perhaps I am too passionate in my belief in CGS and their services but I still respect those who hate slabs. I think I personally went through the emotions that most have when it comes to considering the slabbing of coins. I loathed them, I then tolerated them and now I want my UK collection to be CGS graded!

I should estimate that the vast majority of collectors here would appreciate their coins being certified and graded by CGS. That's not the issue. It's having them forever sealed into a hard-to-store, impossible-to-view, difficult-to-love plastic tomb that's the issue for many of us. If - as I outlined above - we could get them certified and graded WITHOUT encapsulation, I'm sure many more of us would use their services.

Wow! Where do I start? Perhaps with me. I am a collector of coins! But like many collectors I have an eye on what my collection is worth (I want one of every variety of all denominations and years that I collect but unless I win the 'big' Euro million Lottery I have next to no chance of achieving that goal). I also want to have a collection where each coin will be labelled from the 'Bill Pugsley Collection' and hopefully have the provenance passed down through future collectors.

You see, that's where you and I differ. I have a few nice coins, but I don't think any of them are special enough to be labelled "from the _________________ _______ collection". Maybe that's just down to personal egotism, I don't know, but I just like my collection in my own way for my own enjoyment. Sure, I'd like my inheritors to get the best price, but I will be leaving personal instructions about that.

There are one or two eBay sellers who have nothing to do with CGS or London Coins listing CGS Graded coins and have buy-now prices higher than those proposed by CGS. Anyone can register to the CGS site and check values for grades against coin types. A number of CGS coin sellers on eBay always provide the UIN (the Unique Identification Number) allocated by CGS - so it is easy to check the value of the site. I have bid more than the CGS proposed value on a number of coins sold at coin auctions and on eBay, sometimes winning and sometimes not. I make my own assessment of value and if I believe the CGS value is low I will pay more.

I do know the person referred to who sells from his personal collection. He is not an employee of London Coins. At one time I was his most prolific buyer because the prices in his earlier auctions were low. I have bought less and less recently as I seem to get out bid by people prepared to pay more than I am for a specific CGS coin. I was the person who paid £32 for a Currency Churchill Crown (mad you may say) because it was graded as UNC82. How many truly UNC Churchill Crowns have you come across (I have handled at least 100 in the last forty years and none were as good as the one I bought).

At one time London Coin Auctions were the only company to offer CGS graded coins. I have since seen them in DNW, Lockdales and I am sure many other auction houses will follow in time.

Oh believe me, Bill - you would recognise INSTANTLY the surname of the eBay seller of encapsulated 1915 farthings. I'll give you a tiny clue : you mention Lockdales - where do you think the 'Lock' in the name Lockdale comes from? (I'm NOT saying anything against the personnel of London Coins, I've met Stephen numerous times and done business with him at fairs, and always found him an amiable and straight sort of person, but please don't for one moment imagine there isn't an interconnected dealership web, even if it is largely not sinister.)

I too find the relationship between LC and CGS all a little too cozy. When you have an auction, the catalogue has sections for UK graded coins and foreign graded coins. The MS63, MS64 etc coins will often be graded 'we grade as EF or gEF'. It might inspire a little more confidence if they applied the same critical eye to UK graded coins. OK, I accept that's an uphill task when the same vested interests are involved, but surely that is at the core of the issue of integrity and independence? For the same people to grade, sell at auction and produce 'current price' lists for slab grades which are typically twice the going rate for raw coins is simply too cozy to do anything other than raise suspicion. If you would willingly pay twice the Spink price for a coin in a slab with a certain number, nobody is stopping you, but a reality check might be in order because you are now buying the slab in the case of registry sets rather than the coin. Competing for the highest average score may have nothing to do with aesthetics and could lead to a selection of dogs.

It's not just 'cozy', it's the same people!

[TomGoodheart 373]

Ultimately nothing has changed in the two camps and as always it is each to their own. If you are happy with slabs, just carry on as before. For those that don't like them, nobody forces you to buy.

Indeed. I personally have nothing against slabs, I can see the value of protecting a coin and reassurance that it is what the label says it is, ... just they aren't for me.

But then I collect hammered coins. They aren't going to suffer if I pick them up to look at them like copper or proofs and they won't deteriorate like tin. OK, it's not ideal to drop them and you can't give a 'raw' coin to someone to admire without a little trepidation. But nobody has (yet) bitten one to test if it's silver!

Plus I like to weigh my coins, re-examine them for little details I later notice on others, creep downstairs at night and admire them all sleeping on their little felt beds in the cabinet while mumering 'My precioussssss' .. Oops. Did I say that out loud? LOL

I don't honestly pay much attention to the grade someone gives a coin and so, while I get the point about the accuracy of grading (one I'm currently following was 'nearly very fine' when it sold through one auction house three years ago, now it's 'good very fine' with a different auctioneer), I always look at the coin, compare it to those I have seen in the past and make my own decision as to whether it's good enough, how much I'm prepared to pay and how much I want it.

Obviously, I'm of the opinion that this is the ideal way to do things. If people come to rely on TPGCs and don't learn to assess coins themselves I think something is lost from the hobby. You could say it becomes more of an investment than a journey of discovery if you like. Which is why I'm concerned with the idea that simply slabbing a coin makes it worth more. That suggests to me that, as I suspect happens a lot in the US, people are starting to buy the slabs, not the coins. The fact that someone is prepared to pay a ridiculous price for an undated 20p, while not surprising (more has passed hands on ebay for a supposedly lesser example) is not, I feel, something to celebrate.

Yes, I accept it's not the TPG's fault if people are prepared to offer unseen on slabbed coins (jokily or not). But I worry that in a few years we will get disappointed collectors who insist 'but it's CGS encapsulated' as if that somehow makes their 1967 penny different.

It will be interesting to see how it all goes. And whether we will still be discussing the merits or otherwise of slabs in 10 years time!

In the meantime Bill ... how about showing us some photos of your coins, eh?! After all, much as we all like 'chatting' we're only really here for our daily fix of porn coin pics!!

[Gary1000 41]

The basic problem for both sides in this debate is a lack of trust, irrespective of whether you are for or against. The only indisputable advantage of a slab is that you can drop it without damaging the coin.

Pro-slabs will argue that individuals do not grade consistently whereas a slab will provide a grade based on a defined scale. Correct, except that the slab grade is assigned by similarly fallible individuals (who wouldn't be trusted to grade a raw coin) and as a consequence, all TPGs suffer from grading inconsistency. On the odd occasion that I have bought slabs blind, about half would not have been purchased had I seen them beforehand. You are not guaranteed to get the same people grading all the coins of the same type. In the case of a CGS graded coin, I bought blind a 3/- bank token graded UNC 85 as I thought it would be ok for the collection. Silly me, or perhaps I should have realised that the coin was only 85% unc as it said on the label - couldn't live with it. Needless to say, I moved it on and am still looking to fill the gap. Although to be fair, that was the only CGS slab I've had a serious issue with which compares very favourably with the stream of misattributions and crap grading that emanates from across the pond.

A raw coin can be fully examined, including the edge, which is only partially visible/invisible with a slab. Therefore to protect myself, I will always err on the side of caution and tend to mark down the price a little in order to alleviate nasty surprises when the coin is cracked out. MS65 George I halfpenny, George III proof shilling, Victoria halfcrown....etc. There are a few thousand pounds at current prices in this list and I don't like being taken for a ride. The argument that the coins were slabbed for protection and were not meant to be cracked out should be irrelevant as defects are defects whether visible or not. Although I have not had a cracked out CGS coin with hidden edge defects, it would be irrational to assume that the working practices are any different because we are all human.

I too find the relationship between LC and CGS all a little too cozy. When you have an auction, the catalogue has sections for UK graded coins and foreign graded coins. The MS63, MS64 etc coins will often be graded 'we grade as EF or gEF'. It might inspire a little more confidence if they applied the same critical eye to UK graded coins. OK, I accept that's an uphill task when the same vested interests are involved, but surely that is at the core of the issue of integrity and independence? For the same people to grade, sell at auction and produce 'current price' lists for slab grades which are typically twice the going rate for raw coins is simply too cozy to do anything other than raise suspicion. If you would willingly pay twice the Spink price for a coin in a slab with a certain number, nobody is stopping you, but a reality check might be in order because you are now buying the slab in the case of registry sets rather than the coin. Competing for the highest average score may have nothing to do with aesthetics and could lead to a selection of dogs.

In the case of CGS, population reports are a bit misleading given the relatively low number of coins slabbed to date (compared to the US TPGs) and can lead to misrepresentation of rarities for the 'investor'. We can't hold everyone's hand, but we can expect an objective opinion to be given. Are they trying to promote slabs as 'investments' in an advisory capacity or just as a straightforward sales pitch? The first could come unstuck legally, whilst the second as always should carry a health warning. As I haven't seen any note on the website to the effect that they are regulated by the FSA or anyone else, you have to assume that the second applies but with the caveat that they are promoting investing in coins on the LC website. This could potentially be very dodgy territory.

Ultimately nothing has changed in the two camps and as always it is each to their own. If you are happy with slabs, just carry on as before. For those that don't like them, nobody forces you to buy.

What worries me is the expectation that slabbing a coin increases its value. Why? It's the same coin whether slabbed or raw.

[Gary1000 41]

The basic problem for both sides in this debate is a lack of trust, irrespective of whether you are for or against. The only indisputable advantage of a slab is that you can drop it without damaging the coin.

Pro-slabs will argue that individuals do not grade consistently whereas a slab will provide a grade based on a defined scale. Correct, except that the slab grade is assigned by similarly fallible individuals (who wouldn't be trusted to grade a raw coin) and as a consequence, all TPGs suffer from grading inconsistency. On the odd occasion that I have bought slabs blind, about half would not have been purchased had I seen them beforehand. You are not guaranteed to get the same people grading all the coins of the same type. In the case of a CGS graded coin, I bought blind a 3/- bank token graded UNC 85 as I thought it would be ok for the collection. Silly me, or perhaps I should have realised that the coin was only 85% unc as it said on the label - couldn't live with it. Needless to say, I moved it on and am still looking to fill the gap. Although to be fair, that was the only CGS slab I've had a serious issue with which compares very favourably with the stream of misattributions and crap grading that emanates from across the pond.

A raw coin can be fully examined, including the edge, which is only partially visible/invisible with a slab. Therefore to protect myself, I will always err on the side of caution and tend to mark down the price a little in order to alleviate nasty surprises when the coin is cracked out. MS65 George I halfpenny, George III proof shilling, Victoria halfcrown....etc. There are a few thousand pounds at current prices in this list and I don't like being taken for a ride. The argument that the coins were slabbed for protection and were not meant to be cracked out should be irrelevant as defects are defects whether visible or not. Although I have not had a cracked out CGS coin with hidden edge defects, it would be irrational to assume that the working practices are any different because we are all human.

I too find the relationship between LC and CGS all a little too cozy. When you have an auction, the catalogue has sections for UK graded coins and foreign graded coins. The MS63, MS64 etc coins will often be graded 'we grade as EF or gEF'. It might inspire a little more confidence if they applied the same critical eye to UK graded coins. OK, I accept that's an uphill task when the same vested interests are involved, but surely that is at the core of the issue of integrity and independence? For the same people to grade, sell at auction and produce 'current price' lists for slab grades which are typically twice the going rate for raw coins is simply too cozy to do anything other than raise suspicion. If you would willingly pay twice the Spink price for a coin in a slab with a certain number, nobody is stopping you, but a reality check might be in order because you are now buying the slab in the case of registry sets rather than the coin. Competing for the highest average score may have nothing to do with aesthetics and could lead to a selection of dogs.

In the case of CGS, population reports are a bit misleading given the relatively low number of coins slabbed to date (compared to the US TPGs) and can lead to misrepresentation of rarities for the 'investor'. We can't hold everyone's hand, but we can expect an objective opinion to be given. Are they trying to promote slabs as 'investments' in an advisory capacity or just as a straightforward sales pitch? The first could come unstuck legally, whilst the second as always should carry a health warning. As I haven't seen any note on the website to the effect that they are regulated by the FSA or anyone else, you have to assume that the second applies but with the caveat that they are promoting investing in coins on the LC website. This could potentially be very dodgy territory.

Ultimately nothing has changed in the two camps and as always it is each to their own. If you are happy with slabs, just carry on as before. For those that don't like them, nobody forces you to buy.

What worries me is the expectation that slabbing a coin increases its value. Why? It's the same coin whether slabbed or raw.

[TomGoodheart 373]

What worries me is the expectation that slabbing a coin increases its value. Why? It's the same coin whether slabbed or raw.

You can say that again Gary!

[VickySilver 775]

Right or wrong: marketability.

[jaggy 528]

Right or wrong: marketability.

Which only matters if you plan to sell.