No let up in demand

[Rob 3,002]

Prices at Spink today were strong (all prices are hammer). The Brady collection of groats saw some strong prices amongst the lots on offer. The 6 Edward I groats realised between £3600 and £10500 hammer. Lot 33, the Edward III treaty groat hammered at £1850, or about x10 the VF price for this issue which blew me out the water as I only had it down as a £1K bid, though was described by Patrick Finn in his list as the best example you are ever likely to encounter. The three Henry IV light coinage pieces (lots 64-66) made £7200, £19K and £4400 respectively - all well in excess of estimate. The very rare Henry VI unmarked issue made £5200 against an estimate of £2500-3500. The rather nice Edward IV light coinage Norwich groat made over double its £500 estimate and the Richard III coins all made well in excess of estimate. A price of less than £2K for any Richard III groat looks unlikely for the foreseeable future. The Lambert Simnel (lot 242) made £4800 and Perkin Warbeck in the following lot made £7K. The Henry VIII Tournai groat realised £2800 against £1000-1500 and the Gros of Tournai under English rule made the highest price of £22K against £5-6K estimate. The Thomas Wolsey groat (lot 305) made £1650 which is a lot for a not particularly scarce coin. The Mary sole rule coins were a real surprise making £850, £1100 and £1000, particularly when the most expensive one had scratches in front of the bust. The strength continued through Elizabeth and into Charles I with the really attractive Worcester (lot 377) making £4600 against an estimate of £1200-1500 and a total cost to the purchaser of nearly £5800 - or three and a half times current Spink book prices. Very few things failed to beat the estimate and in most cases comfortably exceeded it. I did win one lot (369) which was the Rawlins signed bust with the normal style declaration reverse, but had to pay quite heavily for it at over double estimate and book. However, I was quite pleased to get it as it appears to be the only example available and at least has a decent provenance.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Rob

[Peter 615]

Where is all the big money/demand coming from?

Is is USA?

It will be interesting to read what coin news have to say next month.

[Rob 3,002]

Where is all the big money/demand coming from?

Is is USA?

It will be interesting to read what coin news have to say next month.

Predominantly yes I would say. CNG and other US buyers have been very strong bidders for at least 3 years now. The thing is, British coins are underpriced when viewed from an American perspective. There the top pieces routinely sell for tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars. That is why you get someone paying what to us seems like silly money. For example the $60K spent on the proof Victoria £2 (or £5?) just because it was slabbed as a 67 which in an American context isn't a huge price to pay considering the mintage. Or the 1901 1d that made $600 a year ago on the basis of the grade number. A lot of the nice pieces have made their way west for a while now, and once slabbed it is an uphill task to repatriate them because the number dictates the price people are willing to pay.

You can add in the desire to reduce bank balances by anyone flush with money due to economic uncertainties and the herd mentality ensures that demand far outstrips supply with prices responding in the time honoured fashion.

Edited October 6, 2011 by Rob

[Generic Lad 25]

Yep, us Americans will pay $$$$ especially if it is slabbed. Quite silly really, for example a Mint-State 70 2003 US cent has a book value of well over $10,000 simply because it is slabbed as a 70. If the same coin was slabbed as a MS 68 or 69 it would be worth about $10 and you'd have a hard time selling it. Very little in American coin collecting is about the coin itself, but only if it can be slabbed and what the grade is. Really, one of the reasons I started getting into British coins is because of this silliness in US coin collecting about slabs and subjective numbers. To be honest, I want to get beautiful coins, I don't care if they are MS 70 or MS 68, and I'll take a really worn Gothic Florin to a proof state quarter any day.

[TomGoodheart 373]

Yep, us Americans will pay $$$$ especially if it is slabbed. Quite silly really, for example a Mint-State 70 2003 US cent has a book value of well over $10,000 simply because it is slabbed as a 70. If the same coin was slabbed as a MS 68 or 69 it would be worth about $10 and you'd have a hard time selling it. Very little in American coin collecting is about the coin itself, but only if it can be slabbed and what the grade is. Really, one of the reasons I started getting into British coins is because of this silliness in US coin collecting about slabs and subjective numbers. To be honest, I want to get beautiful coins, I don't care if they are MS 70 or MS 68, and I'll take a really worn Gothic Florin to a proof state quarter any day.

Old (or ancient by US standards!) coins are to me like antique furniture. While I want the essential detail I expect a bit of wear, a degree of patina from handling .. character in other words. To me MS70s are uninteresting. I'm sure it would be possible to strike as many as you want if you used special dies and care, but what's the point? To just stick it in a slab so it sparkles just like it did on day #1? That's not a coin to me.

A coin is something that is intended to be used to buy things; to circulate in other words. All those other things, proofs, fine work pieces, perfect slabbed coins, they are little different from medallions or all those stupid commemorative things like 'London Mint' or 'Westminster Coins' you see on ebay.

As Rob says, there's a problem with slabbing in that it does set a psychological minimum price, at least in the US. As a result I've seen the same coin doing the rounds from Goldbergs to Sacks back to Goldbergs and I suspect never actually owned by an individual, just passed from one auction to another in search of a buyer .. because it is just priced to high. I doubt that's the only one either.

It would be interesting to see if any of these offerings end up slabbed, because in my experience American grading is rarely an accurate reflection of my assessment of a coin, being lower. Whether there are enough savvy American buyers to realise that a much better than average coin might only be graded VF-30 remains to be seen. But as for the demand for better hammered pieces, they are always much scarcer than the ordinary grades and those with a nice provenance will of necessity be very limited and desired. Time will tell whether the US market gets that or if grade continues to drive prices with anything less than EF being much less marketable, however rare.

Edited October 7, 2011 by TomGoodheart

[Peckris 579]

If, as the news seems to think, we're into a 'double dip' (or is it 'dead cat bounce'?) recession, then prepare for the flight into alternative forms of investment e.g. coins to continue.

[Rob 3,002]

If, as the news seems to think, we're into a 'double dip' (or is it 'dead cat bounce'?) recession, then prepare for the flight into alternative forms of investment e.g. coins to continue.

Coins maybe. Land certainly. They aren't making it any more and if the right quality allows you to grow your own fruit and veg. The amount of money that is being printed has to result in inflation for the future. That's going to affect your food prices dramatically and food is something you can't do without. If you double the money in circulation, then prices must necessarily follow when there is no increase in physical assets held.

[Rob 3,002]

A coin is something that is intended to be used to buy things; to circulate in other words. All those other things, proofs, fine work pieces, perfect slabbed coins, they are little different from medallions or all those stupid commemorative things like 'London Mint' or 'Westminster Coins' you see on ebay.

Steady on old chap, you might not like proofs or patterns but they are a world away from the overpriced packaged tat that you get from the last two names mentioned. They deal in things aimed at the public who don't know one coin from the next, so a medallion is just as good in their eyes. That isn't the same as a special striking of a genuine coin, after all, you can spend proofs if you so desire.

[VickySilver 775]

Going back to prices and relative bargains, GB compared to USA:

DNW examples of 1927 proof 6d in (cu)ni and silver just went for 1650 and 3k pounds respectively. The latter I had not known existed and the former I think known by only one or two examples. Also the 1925 matte proof model 6d at 1750 pounds.

If these were USA coins, likely slabbed, they would probably have had to go for 50k + dollars IMO!

[Peckris 579]

If, as the news seems to think, we're into a 'double dip' (or is it 'dead cat bounce'?) recession, then prepare for the flight into alternative forms of investment e.g. coins to continue.

Coins maybe. Land certainly. They aren't making it any more and if the right quality allows you to grow your own fruit and veg. The amount of money that is being printed has to result in inflation for the future. That's going to affect your food prices dramatically and food is something you can't do without. If you double the money in circulation, then prices must necessarily follow when there is no increase in physical assets held.

There's a section of The Liberal Party who believe the only fair tax is a land tax. When you look at what the Duke of Westminster gets away with, I can see their point. What's fairer, a tax on employment (income tax and National Insurance), or a tax on land? Obviously if the land was being used for productive purposes, e.g. farming, then that would be taken into account.

Apparently it's all been costed out and would bring in far more than income tax.

[Accumulator 52]

There's a section of The Liberal Party who believe...... [snip]

..... just about anything. Usually found in elbow-patched corduroy jackets discussing Human Rights or global warming.

I presume you're referring to the Whigs, not the Liberal Democrats?

[Peter 615]

If, as the news seems to think, we're into a 'double dip' (or is it 'dead cat bounce'?) recession, then prepare for the flight into alternative forms of investment e.g. coins to continue.

Coins maybe. Land certainly. They aren't making it any more and if the right quality allows you to grow your own fruit and veg. The amount of money that is being printed has to result in inflation for the future. That's going to affect your food prices dramatically and food is something you can't do without. If you double the money in circulation, then prices must necessarily follow when there is no increase in physical assets held.

There's a section of The Liberal Party who believe the only fair tax is a land tax. When you look at what the Duke of Westminster gets away with, I can see their point. What's fairer, a tax on employment (income tax and National Insurance), or a tax on land? Obviously if the land was being used for productive purposes, e.g. farming, then that would be taken into account.

Apparently it's all been costed out and would bring in far more than income tax.

Tax IS avoidable...need I say more.

[TomGoodheart 373]

Steady on old chap, you might not like proofs or patterns but they are a world away from the overpriced packaged tat that you get from the last two names mentioned. They deal in things aimed at the public who don't know one coin from the next, so a medallion is just as good in their eyes. That isn't the same as a special striking of a genuine coin, after all, you can spend proofs if you so desire.

Oh, I accept what you say. But my feeling is that specially minted coins were meant to be admired as presentation pieces or kept as examples for archiving and study. While they can be spent as regular coinage, I don't believe that was what they were created for. Hence the distinction. Connecting them with modern tat was I guess just Cabernet Sauvignon driven hyperbole!

Tax IS avoidable...need I say more.

Yeah, laik. Dem youff wot haz no jobs an is on benefits, Dey don pay no tax does em?

(Sadly I haz no street cred an carn't keep up wit de chavese, elsin I'd be payin no taxis eeVah, no wot Ah mean?)

[Colin G. 147]

Steady on old chap, you might not like proofs or patterns but they are a world away from the overpriced packaged tat that you get from the last two names mentioned. They deal in things aimed at the public who don't know one coin from the next, so a medallion is just as good in their eyes. That isn't the same as a special striking of a genuine coin, after all, you can spend proofs if you so desire.

Oh, I accept what you say. But my feeling is that specially minted coins were meant to be admired as presentation pieces or kept as examples for archiving and study. While they can be spent as regular coinage, I don't believe that was what they were created for. Hence the distinction. Connecting them with modern tat was I guess just Cabernet Sauvignon driven hyperbole!

Tax IS avoidable...need I say more.

Yeah, laik. Dem youff wot haz no jobs an is on benefits, Dey don pay no tax does em?

(Sadly I haz no street cred an carn't keep up wit de chavese, elsin I'd be payin no taxis eeVah, no wot Ah mean?)

I even heard the accent in my head...that was so bizarre!!

[Peter 615]

Steady on old chap, you might not like proofs or patterns but they are a world away from the overpriced packaged tat that you get from the last two names mentioned. They deal in things aimed at the public who don't know one coin from the next, so a medallion is just as good in their eyes. That isn't the same as a special striking of a genuine coin, after all, you can spend proofs if you so desire.

Oh, I accept what you say. But my feeling is that specially minted coins were meant to be admired as presentation pieces or kept as examples for archiving and study. While they can be spent as regular coinage, I don't believe that was what they were created for. Hence the distinction. Connecting them with modern tat was I guess just Cabernet Sauvignon driven hyperbole!

Tax IS avoidable...need I say more.

Tom

Get an accountant.

Anyone paying large sums into the 40% needs one....or at least a years advice.Does anyone think the swathes of higher tax payers are going to roll over and have their tummies tickled...unbelievable.

Yeah, laik. Dem youff wot haz no jobs an is on benefits, Dey don pay no tax does em?

(Sadly I haz no street cred an carn't keep up wit de chavese, elsin I'd be payin no taxis eeVah, no wot Ah mean?)

I even heard the accent in my head...that was so bizarre!!

[TomGoodheart 373]

Tom

Get an accountant.

Anyone paying large sums into the 40% needs one....or at least a years advice.Does anyone think the swathes of higher tax payers are going to roll over and have their tummies tickled...unbelievable.

LOL I don't make the national average, so unless my salary almost doubles I don't need to worry too much about 40%

I'm not sure an accountant could save me as much as I'd need to pay them!

[1949threepence 3,366]

Old (or ancient by US standards!) coins are to me like antique furniture. While I want the essential detail I expect a bit of wear, a degree of patina from handling .. character in other words. To me MS70s are uninteresting. I'm sure it would be possible to strike as many as you want if you used special dies and care, but what's the point? To just stick it in a slab so it sparkles just like it did on day #1? That's not a coin to me.

A coin is something that is intended to be used to buy things; to circulate in other words. All those other things, proofs, fine work pieces, perfect slabbed coins, they are little different from medallions or all those stupid commemorative things like 'London Mint' or 'Westminster Coins' you see on ebay.

Yet it is precisely those very high 100% lustrous grades, Tom, which sell at a premium way above even GEF. Perfection commands its own elite audience, apparently.......

........That's if you can find them to buy, even at silly money........

[Rob 3,002]

Yet it is precisely those very high 100% lustrous grades, Tom, which sell at a premium way above even GEF. Perfection commands its own elite audience, apparently.......

........That's if you can find them to buy, even at silly money........

The last line explains the first.

More pertinent perhaps is the question, how do you define silly money? Buying coins is just a variation on a common theme where you will pay different prices for different products or the same product in different conditions, after all, you wouldn't pay the same money for a new car as for an older car of the same model. Even if you pay only £10 for a coin in VF, in the eyes of the person who would pay £8 tops, you have paid silly money. Cars depreciate the minute they leave the forecourt and coins are no different. You can't remedy lost lustre. Buying into a top of the range product that can only get scarcer with time is not such a strange idea when you consider that only a very small percentage of a currency issue will remain in this condition, even soon after issue (1967 pennies excepted).

People are always bemoaning the price of top grade pieces, but the same people have no qualms about upgrading at the same price as the inferior item. If you want a coin in a particular grade, then it is reasonable to pay the market rate for that item, which is a function of supply and demand.

Edited October 12, 2011 by Rob

[DaveG38 385]

And don't forget the guy who can buy anything at any price and to whom a huge differential makes no difference. For instance, the guy who has just won £100 million can buy any coin he likes and if he pays over the odds well he won't worry about that either. It's silly money to you and I but not to him - its just indulging a hobby!

[numismatist 2]

What made the Silver 1927 Sixpence Proof that was refered in in DNW 26th Sept 2011

lot 1505 fetch £3720.00 (with premium) Was it exactely the same design as the normal

1927 Proof Sixpence and was the only differance the purity of silver(.925 instead of .500)

How could you determine that without some very specialist testing ?

[Nick 325]

What made the Silver 1927 Sixpence Proof that was refered in in DNW 26th Sept 2011

lot 1505 fetch £3720.00 (with premium) Was it exactely the same design as the normal

1927 Proof Sixpence and was the only differance the purity of silver(.925 instead of .500)

How could you determine that without some very specialist testing ?

It was the "Lion rampant on crown, within circle" reverse design, not the usual "oak sprigs and acorns". A certain amount of the price may be due to the provenance that it came from the late Alfred Bole's collection.

[Rob 3,002]

What made the Silver 1927 Sixpence Proof that was refered in in DNW 26th Sept 2011

lot 1505 fetch £3720.00 (with premium) Was it exactely the same design as the normal

1927 Proof Sixpence and was the only differance the purity of silver(.925 instead of .500)

How could you determine that without some very specialist testing ?

It was the "Lion rampant on crown, within circle" reverse design, not the usual "oak sprigs and acorns". A certain amount of the price may be due to the provenance that it came from the late Alfred Bole's collection.

As the soon to be obsolete design and not recorded in ESC, Davies, Coincraft or anywhere else that I am aware of, it was always going to do well. Bole had a good selection of unrecorded sixpences, including unrecorded designs and unrecorded varieties of existing designs. Get two serious sixpence collectors who want the only piece and wait for the money to roll in.

If you have an item that is normally in 500 silver, but you suspect it may be in finer silver on account of the ring, then you would be best served by getting an EDX run from the RM or similar institution with these facilities. A different ring tone could be accounted for by flan defects, so the only sure way is to get something like the attached.

[numismatist 2]

I appreciate the reason now..thanks..I bet one of those testing machines would cost a few bob (all mint ones at that)

[Peter 615]

Gents my Garret detector will give you different dings...well it certainly sorts out crud.

[Rob 3,002]

Gents my Garret detector will give you different dings...well it certainly sorts out crud.

Yes, but it isn't sensitive enough to differentiate silver fineness. For that you need to do a proper analysis compared to a standard.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Rob