What's Going On at DNW

[DaveG38]

Just come off the DNW auction, after failing to win anything. I was staggerred at some of the prices. A whole group of Charles II /James II maundy brockages were going at £1000 plus per lot, against an estimate of £100-150. A 1937 proof set in gold, usually selling at around £5500-6000, went for £8,500, and the lot I really wanted, an empty box for a short 1893 proof set, went for £650 against an estimate of £150-200. For a bit of leather cardboard and velvet I was willing to go to around £400, and even that was a stretch, considering that it was debateable whether the box was a genuine Royal Mint one as opposed to a contemporary or slightly later product. But £650!!! Shheesh. I know they are hard to come by but that's just plain daft.

[Rob]

No idea what they are doing. Didn't get a catalogue, so didn't waste a day looking at the lots one by one. i.e didn't bother bidding. Plenty of other auctioneers that do send out catalogues.

[jaggy]

I looked at the DNW lots online and came to the conclusion that the London Coins auction had a lot more of interest to me and that I would focus my buying on that auction.

That said, DNW do seem to set estimates low.

[DaveG38]

I looked at the DNW lots online and came to the conclusion that the London Coins auction had a lot more of interest to me and that I would focus my buying on that auction.

That said, DNW do seem to set estimates low.

To be fair, for many of the single lots their estimates were not too far out. They were way off for the multiple lots and for the maundy, particularly the brockages and as I say for anything I wanted!!! If I was in for a 1887 or 1893 boxed full proof set then they were spot with the hammer in the middle of the estimate range.

Edited June 10, 2015 by DaveG38

[Danz]

I got to watch some of it and got my one and only item that I had a com' bid on. Lot 162.

[shagreen]

Given the 1893 box is far rarer than the contents (they were a costly option at the time and given the typical cabinet storage used by numismatists not commonly taken up) I think the price was right. The ephemera associated with the proof sets is rising in tandem with the coins.

[shagreen]

I had a quick look through my Mint records and have attached some correspondence that explains the short cases rarity.

1893 silver set proof/specimens cost 14/-2d (25% premium) and the case 10/-6d so you can appreciate the case was very expensive relative to the coins and this set was targeted by collectors on a budget who couldn't afford the full set including gold which is much more common cased given its lower proportionate cost.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pj2k8vkm3bvidcg/P2172220%20let%20to%20%20H%20Kingston%20ack%20funds%20rec.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/t2jg7rr1xtxx6t9/P2172221%20case%20cost%2010s6d%20coins%2014s2d.jpg?dl=0

[VickySilver]

Scarcer? Maybe so, but there still is the issue of demand. As an example, I would rate myself as borderline fanatical Vick silver collector and have NO INTEREST in a d--- box. Lots of things are rare, but who and how many interested?

Obviously, the demand level is up so maybe this will chase out (and up) the supply.

DNW had nil for me of any real interest. One thing might be interesting - what did the Churchill crown fetch (only semi- out of collar struck)?

[DaveG38]

I had a quick look through my Mint records and have attached some correspondence that explains the short cases rarity.

1893 silver set proof/specimens cost 14/-2d (25% premium) and the case 10/-6d so you can appreciate the case was very expensive relative to the coins and this set was targeted by collectors on a budget who couldn't afford the full set including gold which is much more common cased given its lower proportionate cost.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pj2k8vkm3bvidcg/P2172220%20let%20to%20%20H%20Kingston%20ack%20funds%20rec.jpg?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/t2jg7rr1xtxx6t9/P2172221%20case%20cost%2010s6d%20coins%2014s2d.jpg?dl=0

Ah, I see. I rather assumed that the coins came with a box when they were first issued, and there should, therefore, be a reasonable number of boxes around given sets have been broken up over the years. Based on what you have posted that's clearly not the case, so the box is likely rarer than the coins themselves, which is a bit bizarre. It's a bit like my 1934 crown which came mounted into a specially printed card. There may have been 932 (or is it 934) crowns struck, but I doubt more than a few had the card mounting, so my card is rarer than the coin - doesn't add to the value though!

So, I guess you may be right about the price. The only thing that bothered me is that I always understood that the 1893 sets came in a black leather box with the date on and this one, which I've no doubt was intended for a short set of some kind, was a kind of brownish red, rather like some of the 1902 boxes. It did make me wonder if this was not an official box but some kind of commercial product made for the aftersales market. I was also struck by the gold embossing which seemed to me too like that on the 1927 box, so I did wonder if it was an alternative type for this set.

Here's a London Coins set in it's box for comparison:

http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&auc=145&searchlot=304&searchtype=2

And here's the DNW one:

http://www.dnw.co.uk/auctions/catalogue/lot.php?auction_id=344&lot_id=254

[shagreen]

There are a few references I can dig up that describe the "official" Royal Mint supplied boxes as maroon/red with the coat of arms on the lid. The colour does fade and they were hand made in small batches so there is minor variation in their size. These boxes were supplied from 1887 onwards for the sets and the larger full set boxes do appear on the market occasionally. The 1887 and 1893 boxes are similar in design very generous in their size with no lifter ribbons for the roundels and no royal mint logo on the inner silk lining of the lid. Hearn made a lot of copies in the 1950's. The 1902 -1911 boxes were a different smaller shape and made with morrocan style leather (the fashion at the time)

Back to 1887-93, besides the Hearn (or other dealer) imprint on the silk other signs of copies are in the quality of the gold leaf arms printed on the lids. Later copies tend to be slightly different in its design and have much less resolution. Of course any collector or dealer can commission typically a jewellery case maker to make what ever colour and shape box they desire