European Grading of British coins

[azda]

I had a 2 email discussion about the attached coin, his grading was VF-EF, i emailed because i firmly believed that in no Way should this coin even Have an EF anywhere attributed on it. As we know with poor grading comes inflated prices which in turn may take years to even achieve the price that you initially bought it for.

I'll copy amd Paste his replies in due course, but your comments are invited on your thoughts of the grade, i may even invite him to click on the forum if He wishes to read the comments and how we actually grade british coins

[azda]

This was his email reply to my initial Query regarding grade

Thank you for you interest and your critical comment.

I beg to disagree with you on the grade. It's definitely better than a VF, how much better of course is subjective. This opinion has been borne out by 2 British dealers I know.

Since most of my clients are from Germany, I simply follow the convention of describing anything more than VF bur less than EF as VF-EF. You'll find this applied to many items on the MA-Shops. The reason I quote the price in the EF grade is simply for orientation - after all, I don't ask anything near that and this isn't an auction, so it won't push the price up.

Now about the grade. If you were to do research on the Anna Crowns featured on E-Bay, you would be hard pressed to find anything in comparable condition, although many of them would be graded as VF. As you correctly pointed out, the drape is worn, (and so is the upper part of the hair!) but, as you no doubt know, Anne's bust doesn't wear well and that is the reason why there are so few good portraits among Anne's coins graded as VF! In this case, however, Anne's face is only slightly worn and, in my opinion, this alone warrants a higher grade.

I can understand your annoyance with overgrading but I'm definitely not guilty of it.

In fact, I think at roughly £800, this coin is priced very reasonably for a collector and I fully stand by the price.

[pokal02]

I would say AVF myself, although accepting that others might say VF. EF - he's having a laugh. And most if not all Anne crowns on Ebay are seriously overgraded.

[jaggy]

In my view this coin is at best a VF due to the extent of wear and especially on the Reverse. The fact that "Anne's bust doesn't wear well" or that "there are so few good portraits" is not relevant to the grade.

If, indeed, one would be "hard pressed to find anything in comparable condition" then this would affect the price due to rarity but not the grade.

[azda]

The 2nd email reply after sending him an EF graded coin picture from Londoncoins results list.

Thank you for the pictures. Yes, that coin is a higher grade than mine. But I don't see what that proves. As I explained, I use the range VF-EF partly because it's a convention that many continental dealers follow and partly because I believe the overall appearance of my coin to be slightly higher than VF for the reasons I noted in my previous email. The price that coin fetched also proves the point - my asking price is significantly lower, which accounts for the difference in the grade.

I can only repeat that I find my piece has considerable eye appeal, particularly due to the minimal amount of wear to the Queen's face. At the last International London Coin Fair at the Holiday Inn back on 6 June, I only saw 2 other crown coins that in my opinion had better appeal. I mightn't have seen everything of course... But I saw enough and I've also seen a lot of images on the internet.

It's not my purpose to mislead anyone as to the grade and the price and I don't think I'm doing that in this case. And I hope you wouldn't deny that there is a subjective element to grading as well, and that's where eye appeal comes in.

[Michael-Roo]

Near VF obverse. Slightly less than that for the reverse. You were right to question this, I think.

[ChKy]

In case you purchased that coin I would suggest, that you send the coin back and request a refund. I would judge on a coins grade by looking at a high resolution picture and never relay on descriptions.

[azda]

Grading is as Always subjective, i don't know which British dealers he spoke to, maybe whom he bought it from and in turn in order to return profit they've said GVF or so, but for me the coin is no more than VF IMHO, i have'nt bought it, more enquired about the grading

Edited November 6, 2014 by azda

[Michael-Roo]

Grading is as Always subjective, i don't know which British dealers he spoke to, maybe whom he bought it from and in turn in order to return profit they've said GVF or so, but for me the coin is no more than VF IMHO

When grading, don't forget the golden rule:

'Is it selling, or is it buying?'…….

[Michael-Roo]

Near VF obverse. Slightly less than that for the reverse. You were right to question this, I think.

Looking for a second time. I'd actually probably say the opposite.

Near VF reverse and a little less for the obverse.

[azda]

Here is another of European standard grading, although this has obviously Been so overgraded in Order to make money, graded as VF-EF, really. It was for sale at 1700 Euros but after my enquiry as to grade it's been reduced to 1500

Schottland Sword and sceptre piece 1603

Grade: VF-EF, Schrötlingsrisse | Abbreviations

Material: Gold

SCHOTTLAND, James VI, 1567-1625.

Sword and sceptre piece, 1603, Edinburgh.

4,95 g.

Fb. 46, Seaby 5460,

Edited November 6, 2014 by azda

[ChKy]

In my view this coin is over graded (the silver coin). That is my personal opinion. The description vf-ef in this particular case has nothing to do with continental way of grading coins. Either you agree with the sellers opinion (buy then) or you disagree. In latter case you do not buy. This is the only thing you can do :-)

Edited November 6, 2014 by ChKy

[ChKy]

Not familiar with that kind of gold coins

[azda]

In my view this coin is over graded. That is my personal opinion. The description vf-ef in this particular case has nothing to do with continental way of grading coins. Either you agree with the sellers opinion (buy then) or you disagree. In latter case you do not buy. This is the only thing you can do :-)

I Totallly agree Christoph, its the overgrading to make money amd in turn RIPPING off buyers that gets to me, not everyone is up There in terms of knowing how to grade, it would probably take 10 years before you even got back what you paid for the gold one

[azda]

Not familiar with that kind of gold coins

It's a Scottish sword and sceptre of James VI of Scotland, a rarer date for the type but the huge crack in it means it's worth no more than say £400

[ChKy]

I see :-)

[marvinfinnley]

In my view this coin is over graded. That is my personal opinion. The description vf-ef in this particular case has nothing to do with continental way of grading coins. Either you agree with the sellers opinion (buy then) or you disagree. In latter case you do not buy. This is the only thing you can do :-)

I Totallly agree Christoph, its the overgrading to make money amd in turn RIPPING off buyers that gets to me, not everyone is up There in terms of knowing how to grade, it would probably take 10 years before you even got back what you paid for the gold one

Might I humbly suggest your experience and the extrapolation to unwary/inexperienced buyers is precisely why third party grading has become so popular in the US. You may be wise enough to question this seller's judgement - as he has a vested interest in high-side grading - but others may not be so careful. (I don't mean to start a whole discussion on the pros/cons of TPG please.)

[ChKy]

I don't mean to start a whole discussion on the pros/cons of TPG please.

most European collectors do not care about (or want) TPG anyhow so there will be no discussion

[Mynki]

I Totallly agree Christoph, its the overgrading to make money amd in turn RIPPING off buyers that gets to me, not everyone is up There in terms of knowing how to grade, it would probably take 10 years before you even got back what you paid for the gold one

One of the things that has stopped me from making numerous purchases is the fear of being ripped off. I've looked at various offerings on ebay but just don't believe the UNC or EF ratings. In fact I've almost convinced myself that if I were to make a purchase online then the coin will likely be one or even two grades below what it is advertised at, unless it's from a very reputable dealer.

Perhaps you should link to the vendors website and invite him to post a reply if he wishes to do so. This often happens on other forums I frequent and can be very useful on occasions as long as it's all done politely.

[Sword]

If he is grading a coin "slightly" better than VF as VF-EF, then he ought to, by the same logic, grade a coin slightly less than VF as F-VF. He is certainly not doing that and uses terms such as aVF and aEF on his webpage.

[marvinfinnley]

I don't mean to start a whole discussion on the pros/cons of TPG please.

most European collectors do not care about (or want) TPG anyhow so there will be no discussion

I'm glad to find someone who can speak for most European collectors!

[azda]

To be honest Marvin, most european webstes i visit have next to zero slabbed coins. I've seen prrhaps 2 in the 5 years i've been scouting around