1878 Raised Dot Penny

[loose54]

Hi all, just wondering if I could pick your brains for any thoughts on this 1878 penny I recently acquired.

It has an unusual raised 'dot' over the first 8 in the date. I have seen similar coins, most obvious the 1897 dot penny, but also a couple of bun head pennies. If I remember correctly there was an 1875 on this forum with a raised dot and didn't Gouby list a 'cannonball' variety'?

The bottom leg of E in 'ONE' also appears to be double struck aswell.

What causes the raised dot phenomena do you think? Is it dirt in the die or something similar?

Any thoughts always appreciated.

[Rob]

Raised dots are incuse on the die and usually the result of rusting or a small piece of metal coming away. In this case however, it might be the same stuff as the corroded area in front of Britannia, which you should be able to determine best in hand.

[RLC35]

Hi all, just wondering if I could pick your brains for any thoughts on this 1878 penny I recently acquired.

It has an unusual raised 'dot' over the first 8 in the date. I have seen similar coins, most obvious the 1897 dot penny, but also a couple of bun head pennies. If I remember correctly there was an 1875 on this forum with a raised dot and didn't Gouby list a 'cannonball' variety'?

The bottom leg of E in 'ONE' also appears to be double struck aswell.

What causes the raised dot phenomena do you think? Is it dirt in the die or something similar?

Any thoughts always appreciated.

Here is one very similar to Gouby's Cannonball, only further up the coin, below the "Y." I recently sold this one.

[loose54]

Hi Rob, thanks for the comment, when I think about it it is simple logic that it must be incuse on the die! The dot is definitely not a piece of corrosion, under very high magnification it is a very smooth and well rounded raised dot.

Thanks RLC, a very nice coin indeed. May I ask what the coin sold for?

[RLC35]

Hi Rob, thanks for the comment, when I think about it it is simple logic that it must be incuse on the die! The dot is definitely not a piece of corrosion, under very high magnification it is a very smooth and well rounded raised dot.

Thanks RLC, a very nice coin indeed. May I ask what the coin sold for?

I spoke to Michael Freeman about the 1870 "Dot" Penny, in the picture. He said that while he did notate the coin in his book (footnote #16), he did not assign a number to it because he had never actually seen, or examined one, and that was a prerequisite for listing in his book.

btw...the coin was sold for $595, to advanced collector in the UK.

[davidrj]

Here's my 1875 with the raised dot below the 1st I of VICTORIA - L+Ja Gouby BP1875B(d)

Almost certainly caused by a bit of grit - note the die crack and the suggestion of a cannonball next to the ship on the reverse.

[RLC35]

Here's my 1875 with the raised dot below the 1st I of VICTORIA - L+Ja Gouby BP1875B(d)

Almost certainly caused by a bit of grit - note the die crack and the suggestion of a cannonball next to the ship on the reverse.

David,

Gouby lists the dot below the "I" in Victoria, as BP1875Cd, and the cannonball to the right of the ship as a BP1875Ce. Although your cannonball variety is not as pronounced as the Gouby example (because of the die crack), the dot on your coin is in the exact same spot as the BP1875Ce. At the time of the printing of Gouby's book, he knew of only one example of each of the coins you show.

[davidrj]

It's confusing Bob, see my original post my penny is a BP1875B, F80 with the narrow lighthouse and small date reverse, both the raised dot and cannonball coins shown by Michael are BP1875C, F82.

But the flaws look identical in both size and position!!! here is a scan of his photos

An interesting conundrum

[Rob]

It's confusing Bob, see my original post my penny is a BP1875B, F80 with the narrow lighthouse and small date reverse, both the raised dot and cannonball coins shown by Michael are BP1875C, F82.

But the flaws look identical in both size and position!!! here is a scan of his photos

An interesting conundrum

So it tells you which dies were replaced at which time. Obviously the reverse dies were exchanged whilst the obverse wasn't. If you can find evidence of incremental wear to the obverse between the two combinations, it will give you the order in which they were used.

[RLC35]

It's confusing Bob, see my original post my penny is a BP1875B, F80 with the narrow lighthouse and small date reverse, both the raised dot and cannonball coins shown by Michael are BP1875C, F82.

But the flaws look identical in both size and position!!! here is a scan of his photos

An interesting conundru

David, I noticed your coin was a small date, but I didn't notice that Gouby's coin was a large date (the coin pictured in his book). He doesn't show the small date (with the cannonball), that I can find.

[davidrj]

So it tells you which dies were replaced at which time. Obviously the reverse dies were exchanged whilst the obverse wasn't. If you can find evidence of incremental wear to the obverse between the two combinations, it will give you the order in which they were used.

I can accept that we are talking about the same obverse die on the two dot below I coins.

But how do we explain the almost identically situated cannonball flaws on two different reverses ??????????

[Coinery]

Could be a few minutes before Rob gets back, he's just popped out to buy 2kgs of coffee and order a pizza for midnight!

[loose54]

Some interesting points, thank you all. RLC, it would have been nice to have got a number assigned to your coin and listed in his book eh!

[Rob]

Could be a few minutes before Rob gets back, he's just popped out to buy 2kgs of coffee and order a pizza for midnight!

In the words my daughter at the age of 4, 'Hello friends, I am here!'

Never the modest one and always melodramatic, she has turned out to be a balanced, well mannered and sensible member of society. Who would have thought that?

Sorry Stuart, don't do take away pizzas. Coffee is another matter.

Edited November 5, 2014 by Rob

[RLC35]

Some interesting points, thank you all. RLC, it would have been nice to have got a number assigned to your coin and listed in his book eh!

I have a feeling Michael will be doing a update on his book, one of these days, he can add the newly discovered varieties then!

[Coinery]

Could be a few minutes before Rob gets back, he's just popped out to buy 2kgs of coffee and order a pizza for midnight!

In the words my daughter at the age of 4, 'Hello friends, I am here!'

Never the modest one and always melodramatic, she has turned out to be a balanced, well mannered and sensible member of society. Who would have thought that?

Sorry Stuart, don't do take away pizzas. Coffee is another matter.

I can take the knock on the Pizza call, just from knowing there's another balanced individual added to the ranks!

If that's the best we can achieve in life, we have lived it well!

Apologies to you penny chaps...carry on!

[Rob]

Wow. Balanced individual. Nobody has ever called me that before. Are you sure?

I'm currently thrashing around at a overweight meat fly that has invaded my territory. What's it doing when it is below zero outside? It's November. Mind you, we went walking up Longdendale at the weekend and the clover was in bloom, daisy like weeds flowering aplenty, and even a cowslip. The wind was warm.

Edited November 6, 2014 by Rob

[Coinery]

Wow. Balanced individual. Nobody has ever called me that before. Are you sure?

Ah, no, Rob, not you, you're barking! I was referring to your part in adding a balanced child to the pot!

[Rob]

Wow. Balanced individual. Nobody has ever called me that before. Are you sure?

Ah, no, Rob, not you, you're barking! I was referring to your part in adding a balanced child to the pot!

I've done worse than that, I've added 4 (relatively) balanced people. Mind you, one's an anarchist - still good for an argument though.

[Coinery]

Wow. Balanced individual. Nobody has ever called me that before. Are you sure?

Ah, no, Rob, not you, you're barking! I was referring to your part in adding a balanced child to the pot!

I've done worse than that, I've added 4 (relatively) balanced people. Mind you, one's an anarchist - still good for an argument though.

[Peckris]

Could be a few minutes before Rob gets back, he's just popped out to buy 2kgs of coffee and order a pizza for midnight!

In the words my daughter at the age of 4, 'Hello friends, I am here!'

Never the modest one and always melodramatic, she has turned out to be a balanced, well mannered and sensible member of society. Who would have thought that?

Sorry Stuart, don't do take away pizzas. Coffee is another matter.

Nor me - not one of them does my favourite: Seafood pizza. Yet when I phoned Pizza Hut to challenge them on this, they told me they did do them in their restaurants! Pfffft.

[Michael-Roo]

Could be a few minutes before Rob gets back, he's just popped out to buy 2kgs of coffee and order a pizza for midnight!

In the words my daughter at the age of 4, 'Hello friends, I am here!'

Never the modest one and always melodramatic, she has turned out to be a balanced, well mannered and sensible member of society. Who would have thought that?

Sorry Stuart, don't do take away pizzas. Coffee is another matter.

Nor me - not one of them does my favourite: Seafood pizza. Yet when I phoned Pizza Hut to challenge them on this, they told me they did do them in their restaurants! Pfffft.

And while we're at it: who the hell was it decided pineapple would be something to use as a topping? No one Italian I'd wager…..

[Peckris]

Could be a few minutes before Rob gets back, he's just popped out to buy 2kgs of coffee and order a pizza for midnight!

In the words my daughter at the age of 4, 'Hello friends, I am here!'

Never the modest one and always melodramatic, she has turned out to be a balanced, well mannered and sensible member of society. Who would have thought that?

Sorry Stuart, don't do take away pizzas. Coffee is another matter.

Nor me - not one of them does my favourite: Seafood pizza. Yet when I phoned Pizza Hut to challenge them on this, they told me they did do them in their restaurants! Pfffft.

And while we're at it: who the hell was it decided pineapple would be something to use as a topping? No one Italian I'd wager…..

Damn right! Mind, a Persian Chicken Biryani really does come with banana...

[Michael-Roo]

Could be a few minutes before Rob gets back, he's just popped out to buy 2kgs of coffee and order a pizza for midnight!

In the words my daughter at the age of 4, 'Hello friends, I am here!'

Never the modest one and always melodramatic, she has turned out to be a balanced, well mannered and sensible member of society. Who would have thought that?

Sorry Stuart, don't do take away pizzas. Coffee is another matter.

Nor me - not one of them does my favourite: Seafood pizza. Yet when I phoned Pizza Hut to challenge them on this, they told me they did do them in their restaurants! Pfffft.

And while we're at it: who the hell was it decided pineapple would be something to use as a topping? No one Italian I'd wager…..

Damn right! Mind, a Persian Chicken Biryani really does come with banana...

Now were talking. There's a fine use for the contents of the fruit bowl!

[Colin G.]

Could be a few minutes before Rob gets back, he's just popped out to buy 2kgs of coffee and order a pizza for midnight!

In the words my daughter at the age of 4, 'Hello friends, I am here!'

Never the modest one and always melodramatic, she has turned out to be a balanced, well mannered and sensible member of society. Who would have thought that?

Sorry Stuart, don't do take away pizzas. Coffee is another matter.

Nor me - not one of them does my favourite: Seafood pizza. Yet when I phoned Pizza Hut to challenge them on this, they told me they did do them in their restaurants! Pfffft.

And while we're at it: who the hell was it decided pineapple would be something to use as a topping? No one Italian I'd wager…..

I love pineapple as a pizza topping