1611 James I Shilling Mullet over Bell

[rooneydog]

Ok to allow me to continue collecting William III please can you suggest where the best place to sell this scarce coin is (Peter no comments on grade please )

[rooneydog]

Apologies for bluntness of my post in advance.

[azda]

It might be scarce but condition is everything. I'd say it might be a £70 coin, you should try eBay

[Rob]

Try an auction. eBay is a disaster at the moment as nobody is bidding on anything to speak of unless it is 99p. The graffiti won't help your cause.

I paid £130 for mine in 2005. Better grade than yours, but mullet over bell on the obverse only. From a different obverse die, so that makes at least 3 obverse dies with the overmark including Ashby's.

[azda]

Its strange why eBay has taken this Route recently

[rooneydog]

Its strange why eBay has taken this Route recently

It's hot and most people have gone on holiday (or maybe to Scotland to watch the games )

Rob which auction house do you recommend for hammered ?

Thanks

[Rob]

None in particular. It's just that ebay is worse than useless for sellers these days. You either have to list it as a BIN for the price you want, or expect to sell it for a pittance. It isn't in a high enough grade for people to chase it, and unless desperately rare (which it isn't), the graffiti will affect the price and demand significantly.

[Peter]

Nice round coin RD

I echo Robs comments on the graffiti.

I would be tempted to stash it away for a later date

[rooneydog]

Nice round coin RD

I echo Robs comments on the graffiti.

I would be tempted to stash it away for a later date

Noted and stashed - I need to go to Adullams (Stowmarket) for a bigger cupboard

[Peter]

Nice round coin RD

I echo Robs comments on the graffiti.

I would be tempted to stash it away for a later date

Noted and stashed - I need to go to Adullams (Stowmarket) for a bigger cupboard

? Adullams in Stow....I don't know it.

Good to see you on a "proper" UK forum.

I was thinking of taking a cabinet space in the new antique centre in Debenham but I will give it a visit and see what it's like.

[azda]

Hmmmmm i don't think its been hot in the UK for 18 months running because thats how long eBay has been shite for, for coin auction values. As stated above, £70

Edited July 31, 2014 by azda

[rooneydog]

Hmmmmm i don't think its been hot in the UK for 18 months running because thats how long eBay has been shite for, for coin auction values. As stated above, £70

Everything I have looked at has doubled in price.

Nice round coin RD

I echo Robs comments on the graffiti.

I would be tempted to stash it away for a later date

Noted and stashed - I need to go to Adullams (Stowmarket) for a bigger cupboard

? Adullams in Stow....I don't know it.

Good to see you on a "proper" UK forum.

I was thinking of taking a cabinet space in the new antique centre in Debenham but I will give it a visit and see what it's like.

I was going to go this afternoon and visit the new centre but the grape won.

You need lots of reruns of Lovejoy to encourage people to visit - it seems very quiet around here, but I am at work in Ipswich most of the week so who knows. If you do visit let me know and I will buy you a pint in the Woolpack (opposite Lovejoys)

[azda]

Really?i've seen many at last years or the year before prices, but when its your own coin i guess you see what you want to. Big price increases come at the top end of the grade scale, and as has been pointed out, yours unfortumately is'nt up there. I'll stick though at my thoughts on price

Maybe you can point out a smilar graded coin thats sold in the last few years so we can compare prices

Edited July 31, 2014 by azda

[rooneydog]

Really?i've seen many at last years or the year before prices, but when its your own coin i guess you see what you want to. Big price increases come at the top end of the grade scale, and as has been pointed out, yours unfortumately is'nt up there. I'll stick though at my thoughts on price

Maybe you can point out a smilar graded coin thats sold in the last few years so we can compare prices

I am talking generally not hammered, this is the first time I have bought hammered and it was at auction on a whim, I like William III

[azda]

I like James I

[Paulus]

I like James I

Me too, lots going on

[Peter]

I like em all

I sold my Mary Groat because I couldn't live with the grade but regret it now.

I like RD's James because of the over date MM and would be happy to have it as a type collector.OK i have James shillings but this is a novelty different type.

My current Contract is in Norwich....Booooooo.

Actually it is a beautiful City and the locals are friendly and always respond when I say give me six.

[Peter]

Hmmmmm i don't think its been hot in the UK for 18 months running because thats how long eBay has been shite for, for coin auction values. As stated above, £70

Everything I have looked at has doubled in price.

Nice round coin RD

I echo Robs comments on the graffiti.

I would be tempted to stash it away for a later date

Noted and stashed - I need to go to Adullams (Stowmarket) for a bigger cupboard

? Adullams in Stow....I don't know it.

Good to see you on a "proper" UK forum.

I was thinking of taking a cabinet space in the new antique centre in Debenham but I will give it a visit and see what it's like.

I was going to go this afternoon and visit the new centre but the grape won.

You need lots of reruns of Lovejoy to encourage people to visit - it seems very quiet around here, but I am at work in Ipswich most of the week so who knows. If you do visit let me know and I will buy you a pint in the Woolpack (opposite Lovejoys)

Could be down for a nice Sunday outing in my MG and the promise of a bite to eat for Mrs Peter.

[Rob]

Try an auction. eBay is a disaster at the moment as nobody is bidding on anything to speak of unless it is 99p. The graffiti won't help your cause.

I paid £130 for mine in 2005. Better grade than yours, but mullet over bell on the obverse only. From a different obverse die, so that makes at least 3 obverse dies with the overmark including Ashby's.

To expand on this, the amount of silver in the Bell pyx on 9th May 1611 was £9/12/8¹/₂d. The amount of silver in the mullet pyx on 22nd May 1612 was £9/11/4d. So the scarcity of the two marks is roughly identical.

To put the values into perspective, the highest was 1606 Rose £154/13/3d, and the lowest 1620 Spur Rowel at £-/5/4d (excluding those marks where no silver was present). So both marks are scarce (as is any silver for the period 1610-1620), but not that difficult.

As the amount of silver set aside for the pyx at this time was 2 pieces out of every 30 pounds of coined silver, it is possible to make an estimate of the quantity of silver coined, if not the relative abundance of each denomination - which can only be guessed by taking a census of surviving coins. As the largest denomination in the pyx and with no smaller denomination standing out as particularly common, (1s, 6d, 2d, 1d, 1/2d), shillings are likely to have formed the bulk of the silver. At a sampling rate of one every 1200 pieces (ish), this suggests an output of say 10000 shillings for each mark. On that basis and given it is possible to identify three overmarked obverse dies, the overmark is likely to be as common as the straight mullet, if not more so.

To correct the post on CCF where the dates for the marks are a year out, all the overmarked coins would have been produced after 9th May 1611 and no later than 22nd May 1612 and not in 1610-11.

[rooneydog]

Thanks Rob. When I get a couple of hours I am going to have a look at your calculations.

I can find quite a few Mullets on the net but not many Bells or Mullet over Bell, but I suppose if you still have a Mullet you are a bit of a Bell

[TomGoodheart]

To correct the post on CCF where the dates for the marks are a year out, all the overmarked coins would have been produced after 9th May 1611 and no later than 22nd May 1612 and not in 1610-11.

Though interestingly the sixpence in this lot was listed as mullet over bell ...

.. is that wax I see?

[Rob]

1610 would be right for bell, but not mullet given the mark didn't start until 45 days into the new year. Presumably an old reverse die that someone forgot to change the date on. As the pyx was determined by the mark and not the year on the coin, it is obviously a surviving oddity, hence the wax. Which catalogue I don't know unless the lot description gives you the info. There can't be many sixpences in that condition illustrated in old catalogues.

RD. The numbers of each denomination within a mark will depend on what was requested by the people bringing silver to the mint. Only when the market price of silver moved above face do we see a marked loading in favour of the small denominations. These were required to provide the poor with small change for their relief and as a result are more common relative to sixpences and shillings in the second half of the decade when the mint struck them at a loss. Shillings on the other hand are excessively rare for book, plain cross and spur rowel - less than a dozen examples for all three marks combined? Sixpences are also elusive at this time. The smaller values were only made by the mint under duress due to the difficulty in handling ever smaller pieces of metal. The terms of most indentures were that the remuneration was related to the weight of metal coined, making small coins unattractive.

The overmark is clear on yours, but less so on the other two dies. A bit of double striking/off flan/not well struck up and you would only know it was an overmark by matching the visible bits of the die.

[myt]

On 8/1/2014 at 4:24 AM, Rob said:

To expand on this, the amount of silver in the Bell pyx on 9th May 1611 was £9/12/8¹/₂d. The amount of silver in the mullet pyx on 22nd May 1612 was £9/11/4d. So the scarcity of the two marks is roughly identical.

To put the values into perspective, the highest was 1606 Rose £154/13/3d, and the lowest 1620 Spur Rowel at £-/5/4d (excluding those marks where no silver was present). So both marks are scarce (as is any silver for the period 1610-1620), but not that difficult.

As the amount of silver set aside for the pyx at this time was 2 pieces out of every 30 pounds of coined silver, it is possible to make an estimate of the quantity of silver coined, if not the relative abundance of each denomination - which can only be guessed by taking a census of surviving coins. As the largest denomination in the pyx and with no smaller denomination standing out as particularly common, (1s, 6d, 2d, 1d, 1/2d), shillings are likely to have formed the bulk of the silver. At a sampling rate of one every 1200 pieces (ish), this suggests an output of say 10000 shillings for each mark. On that basis and given it is possible to identify three overmarked obverse dies, the overmark is likely to be as common as the straight mullet, if not more so.

To correct the post on CCF where the dates for the marks are a year out, all the overmarked coins would have been produced after 9th May 1611 and no later than 22nd May 1612 and not in 1610-11.

Hi Rob, 

I was wondering where you were referencing the total amount of silver in each pyx from, what source? I was looking through (Ruding, 1840) "Annals of the Coinage of Great Britain and its Dependencies", in the Appendix there are accounts of the assay verdicts from each pyx, but from what I gather not the total weight in silver. I also read (pp. 73/74) a description of the trial of the pyx which made it seem like each Sinthia for each month would be open, and I thought it was saying they would be not only weighed, but then enumerated to see if it matches the expected weight (prior to a procedure for collecting the coins for the assay). 

Any help appreciated, as I am just beginning to look into this history. 
Thanks!

[myt]

Hi @Rob, still new to posting but realized I can tag people. I had a question (last post) on your reference of some info for the James I era pyx trials. 

[Rob]

I've no idea how tags work - I certainly don't get any notifications that someone wants a reply. i.e. I reply when I see something that needs attending to.

Henry Symonds, BNJ vol.9 p.207-233, The Mint-Marks and Denominations of the Coinage of James I, as Disclosed by the Trials of the Pyx, with Historical Comments on the Procedure and Notes on the Mint Accounts of the Period.