C.W.Peck, Numbers on rarity ratings.

[MRD]

Hi folks,

Great forum and im really enjoying finding so much information by trolling through all the old posts.

My question is In the BMC Peck gives his take on rarity, now i understand that is not possible to give an exact number but what numbers would you fellows put on the following.

S - Scarce

VS - Very scarce

R - Rare

VR - Very rare

ER - Extremely rare

EXR - Excessively rare

PU - well that sort of answers its own description.

Thanks in advance, and thanks to Rob for the nice 1788

[Rob]

Hi folks,

Great forum and im really enjoying finding so much information by trolling through all the old posts.

My question is In the BMC Peck gives his take on rarity, now i understand that is not possible to give an exact number but what numbers would you fellows put on the following.

S - Scarce

VS - Very scarce

R - Rare

VR - Very rare

ER - Extremely rare

EXR - Excessively rare

PU - well that sort of answers its own description.

Thanks in advance, and thanks to Rob for the nice 1788

All are somewhere between 1 and lots For a somewhat more useful indicator, see Mick Martin's survey of Soho patterns in the July 2009 Circular where he tabulated the number of times a particular reference coin has appeared in UK sales and lists since 1971 and gives a comparison between Peck rarity and availability. Interesting reading.

[Rob]

Just to add - there are coins rated as common as VS by Peck where no examples have come to market since 1970. Mick concluded that they were virtually unobtainable and I concur. Conversely there are coins rated R which are always available. That's usually called common. Half are probably about right, with the rest requiring some adjustment in both directions.

[jaggy]

How do these scarcity ratings compare or tie in with the Seaby ratings (C, N, S, R, R2, etc.)?

[MRD]

Thanks Rob,

Where do i get a copy of the article by M, Martin or the July 2009 Circular? I seem to have gravitated towards the George III SOHO mint stuff so it would be very helpful.

Regards.

.

[Peckris]

How do these scarcity ratings compare or tie in with the Seaby ratings (C, N, S, R, R2, etc.)?

There are/were no scarcity ratings in the Standard Catalogue, apart from the occasional Extremely/Excessively Rare when they haven't got a recent price and it's known to be very rare. You may be thinking of the ESC ratings devised by Raynor? As far as I remember, only at R3 and above are these "significantly rare", though I realise that's something of a subjective rating. But from R4 they say:

R4 11-20 examples known

R5 5-10

R6 3-4

R7 1-2

[Rob]

Thanks Rob,

Where do i get a copy of the article by M, Martin or the July 2009 Circular? I seem to have gravitated towards the George III SOHO mint stuff so it would be very helpful.

Regards.

Keep your eyes open as I don't have a spare. It only covers copper, bronzed and gilt pieces because Mick doesn't collect Silver or Gold Soho or restrikes, so does have its inherent limitations. Having said that, the latter are so rare that there must by definition be few collectors of them in these metals. I can probably help here if you need any info.

[Rob]

How do these scarcity ratings compare or tie in with the Seaby ratings (C, N, S, R, R2, etc.)?

Rule of thumb. PU/EXR say R7 & R6 with ER being R5. When you get to R4 and more common, it is fair to say that virtually all would fall into a category that covered double figures though it is quite likely there are more than 100 of the commonest types. All of which assumes of course that the Peck rarity assigned is correct. More important than absolute numbers is the number of freely circulating and therefore available pieces. There are a handful of pieces where there are probably only the four recorded known, but only a single piece is available. Some Taylor restrikes are much more common than Peck suggests.

[Rob]

Thanks Rob,

Where do i get a copy of the article by M, Martin or the July 2009 Circular? I seem to have gravitated towards the George III SOHO mint stuff so it would be very helpful.

Regards.

Keep your eyes open as I don't have a spare. It only covers copper, bronzed and gilt pieces because Mick doesn't collect Silver or Gold Soho or restrikes, so does have its inherent limitations. Having said that, the latter are so rare that there must by definition be few collectors of them in these metals. I can probably help here if you need any info.

Sorry, I lied. Didn't realise I had one spare. PM sent.

[InforaPenny]

My understanding is that the rarity ratings in Peck reflect how frequently he encountered coins in the various collections he examined and dealer's stock, and were not based on a more random survey (such as Freeman's). Consequently, some coins which Peck ranks as common such as the 1860 LCW below foot penny, are actually fairly rare, although being such a distinctive variety were apparently well represented in the collections he examined.

Best Regards,

InforaPenny

[TomGoodheart]

Interesting thread. My feeling is that it can be particularly difficult to assess rarity. And as Rob says, it's often not absolute numbers which are important (though those in themselves can be difficult enough to fix) but what's available to collectors.

A hoard find, or sale of a decent collection, can bring coins to light that were previously not known to exist. And even if rare, if say six examples are known to exist but only four collectors want one, then demand and presumably price will clearly not reflect scarcity.

Ease of identification is certainly a factor too. In my own area of interest (Tower shillings of Charles I) discoveries are still being made. For example, in 1994 the Sharp G3/2 (S.2801) type was unknown. Today I know of 9 coins of this design. And while one is in the British Museum, the rest are in private collections and so potentially available to collectors. And die variations suggest more are likely to be out there. Barely rates as rare now. But don't tell Spink that!

[Accumulator]

Thanks Rob,

Where do i get a copy of the article by M, Martin or the July 2009 Circular? I seem to have gravitated towards the George III SOHO mint stuff so it would be very helpful.

Regards.

Keep your eyes open as I don't have a spare. It only covers copper, bronzed and gilt pieces because Mick doesn't collect Silver or Gold Soho or restrikes, so does have its inherent limitations. Having said that, the latter are so rare that there must by definition be few collectors of them in these metals. I can probably help here if you need any info.

Sorry, I lied. Didn't realise I had one spare. PM sent.

Sorry, been busy for the past couple of weeks. If you find a second spare copy Rob, please let me know? Or if anyone can email a photocopy? Spink have a few old Circulars that can be read on their website, but unfortunately not this one.

[MRD]

Circular arrived, A cursory first read certainly answers many of my questions. Thanks Rob greatly appreciated by this novice!!