Freeman Id Check

[pies]

Hi all just trying to properly sort my pennies and im struggling can anybody confirm this is a Freeman 68 with dies 6 and H.

Im grading it at VF does this sound about right

[Peckris]

That's the older obverse - I think it's Obverse 8 judging from the eye position and the ribbon bow? That would make it 8+H which is about the same rarity as 6+H.

[pies]

TBH i was more concerned with the reverse that i didnt give the obverse a proper look,looks like an 8 to me now.Ta

so its a 78

[Accumulator]

No, it's the Freeman 73, dies 7 + H. None of the Heaton mint pennies of that year are obverse 8.

[1949threepence]

TBH i was more concerned with the reverse that i didnt give the obverse a proper look,looks like an 8 to me now.Ta

so its a 78

It's not a 78 obverse 8, because no obverse 8's were minted at Heaton in 1874. That leaves it as a 7 + H, F73.

edit: beaten to it by Accumulator, while I was looking at Freeman's book

Edited January 19, 2013 by 1949threepence

[pies]

lol

this is going to be along job

[Accumulator]

lol

this is going to be along job

You're not the first, and you won't be the last, to feel the pain of correctly cataloguing pennies

[pies]

lol

this is going to be along job

You're not the first, and you won't be the last, to feel the pain of correctly cataloguing pennies

Is my grade correct,as not only am i struggling to id them i struggle to grade them

[1949threepence]

lol

this is going to be along job

You're not the first, and you won't be the last, to feel the pain of correctly cataloguing pennies

Is my grade correct,as not only am i struggling to id them i struggle to grade them

VF looks about right, although it's not a brilliant photo.

[Peckris]

TBH i was more concerned with the reverse that i didnt give the obverse a proper look,looks like an 8 to me now.Ta

so its a 78

It's not a 78 obverse 8, because no obverse 8's were minted at Heaton in 1874. That leaves it as a 7 + H, F73.

edit: beaten to it by Accumulator, while I was looking at Freeman's book

Oops, my mistake - I forgot about that liddle H. Yet the eye and ribbon appear to be right for Obverse 8?

Your grade is not over, pies. It's minimum VF, but many would grade GVF.

[Accumulator]

TBH i was more concerned with the reverse that i didnt give the obverse a proper look,looks like an 8 to me now.Ta

so its a 78

It's not a 78 obverse 8, because no obverse 8's were minted at Heaton in 1874. That leaves it as a 7 + H, F73.

edit: beaten to it by Accumulator, while I was looking at Freeman's book

Oops, my mistake - I forgot about that liddle H. Yet the eye and ribbon appear to be right for Obverse 8?

Your grade is not over, pies. It's minimum VF, but many would grade GVF.

I always find the eye a difficult one, but the ribbon on obverse 8 is much wider, leaving very little gap between the two loose ribbon ends, Here's Obverse 7 (on the left) and 8 (on the right, or below depending on your screen width Peckris ):

Edited January 19, 2013 by Accumulator

[Peckris]

TBH i was more concerned with the reverse that i didnt give the obverse a proper look,looks like an 8 to me now.Ta

so its a 78

It's not a 78 obverse 8, because no obverse 8's were minted at Heaton in 1874. That leaves it as a 7 + H, F73.

edit: beaten to it by Accumulator, while I was looking at Freeman's book

Oops, my mistake - I forgot about that liddle H. Yet the eye and ribbon appear to be right for Obverse 8?

Your grade is not over, pies. It's minimum VF, but many would grade GVF.

I always find the eye a difficult one, but the ribbon on obverse 8 is much wider, leaving very little gap between the two loose ribbon ends, Here's Obverse 7 (on the left) and 8 (on the right, or below depending on your screen width Peckris ):

That's really really difficult, isn't it? Freeman seems to be wrong about the eye - those are identical. However, the ribbon bow shows very slight difference, but also the rose doesn't encroach below the linear circle on 7 like it does on 8.

[Coinery]

TBH i was more concerned with the reverse that i didnt give the obverse a proper look,looks like an 8 to me now.Ta

so its a 78

It's not a 78 obverse 8, because no obverse 8's were minted at Heaton in 1874. That leaves it as a 7 + H, F73.

edit: beaten to it by Accumulator, while I was looking at Freeman's book

Oops, my mistake - I forgot about that liddle H. Yet the eye and ribbon appear to be right for Obverse 8?

Your grade is not over, pies. It's minimum VF, but many would grade GVF.

I always find the eye a difficult one, but the ribbon on obverse 8 is much wider, leaving very little gap between the two loose ribbon ends, Here's Obverse 7 (on the left) and 8 (on the right, or below depending on your screen width Peckris ):

That's really really difficult, isn't it? Freeman seems to be wrong about the eye - those are identical. However, the ribbon bow shows very slight difference, but also the rose doesn't encroach below the linear circle on 7 like it does on 8.

Just out of interest, what do you big bronze/copper guys (sounds like a porn title for a John movie) do with your coins? Do you degrease? Do you oil? Do you store your copper/bronze in an airtight condition? What are you doing to prevent further toning on your blazing examples?

[pies]

I keep my cheapos in lighthouse coin capsules

[Accumulator]

TBH i was more concerned with the reverse that i didnt give the obverse a proper look,looks like an 8 to me now.Ta

so its a 78

It's not a 78 obverse 8, because no obverse 8's were minted at Heaton in 1874. That leaves it as a 7 + H, F73.

edit: beaten to it by Accumulator, while I was looking at Freeman's book

Oops, my mistake - I forgot about that liddle H. Yet the eye and ribbon appear to be right for Obverse 8?

Your grade is not over, pies. It's minimum VF, but many would grade GVF.

I always find the eye a difficult one, but the ribbon on obverse 8 is much wider, leaving very little gap between the two loose ribbon ends, Here's Obverse 7 (on the left) and 8 (on the right, or below depending on your screen width Peckris ):

That's really really difficult, isn't it? Freeman seems to be wrong about the eye - those are identical. However, the ribbon bow shows very slight difference, but also the rose doesn't encroach below the linear circle on 7 like it does on 8.

Just out of interest, what do you big bronze/copper guys (sounds like a porn title for a John movie) do with your coins? Do you degrease? Do you oil? Do you store your copper/bronze in an airtight condition? What are you doing to prevent further toning on your blazing examples?

It does sound a little dodgy put like that!

The coin in the left pic is slabbed (NGC MS65, I think) so, in common with my other slabbed coins, I just leave that alone. I only use olive oil on coins with verdigris spots, the others I leave au naturale. I store them in lighthouse quadrum capsules, in lighthouse trays. The trays (the sliding part and the enclosure) can be moved and stacked inside a storage case or safe. I keep lots of silica gel sachets with the coin trays and they are always in a dry, warm location.

I do like the idea of a mahogany coin cabinet (discussed in another thread) but the security aspect of leaving a collection on show would worry me.

Edited January 19, 2013 by Accumulator

[1949threepence]

Just out of interest, what do you big bronze/copper guys (sounds like a porn title for a John movie) do with your coins? Do you degrease? Do you oil? Do you store your copper/bronze in an airtight condition? What are you doing to prevent further toning on your blazing examples?

I simply store them in my mahogany coin cabinet in a dry, warm room.

With regard to the possibility of my very high grade coins incurring toning, I figure that if I look after them reasonably well, they should not tone any further, at least not in my lifetime. After all, who knows how they've been kept since, say, 1860. If they've survived since then (152 years) without significant toning, then I'm sure they'll manage a bit longer.

[Accumulator]

Just out of interest, what do you big bronze/copper guys (sounds like a porn title for a John movie) do with your coins? Do you degrease? Do you oil? Do you store your copper/bronze in an airtight condition? What are you doing to prevent further toning on your blazing examples?

I simply store them in my mahogany coin cabinet in a dry, warm room.

With regard to the possibility of my very high grade coins incurring toning, I figure that if I look after them reasonably well, they should not tone any further, at least not in my lifetime. After all, who knows how they've been kept since, say, 1860. If they've survived since then (152 years) without significant toning, then I'm sure they'll manage a bit longer.

I totally agree with this. It's hard to imagine that they've spent 150 years in better storage conditions than I am providing.

[Coinery]

Just out of interest, what do you big bronze/copper guys (sounds like a porn title for a John movie) do with your coins? Do you degrease? Do you oil? Do you store your copper/bronze in an airtight condition? What are you doing to prevent further toning on your blazing examples?

I simply store them in my mahogany coin cabinet in a dry, warm room.

With regard to the possibility of my very high grade coins incurring toning, I figure that if I look after them reasonably well, they should not tone any further, at least not in my lifetime. After all, who knows how they've been kept since, say, 1860. If they've survived since then (152 years) without significant toning, then I'm sure they'll manage a bit longer.

I totally agree with this. It's hard to imagine that they've spent 150 years in better storage conditions than I am providing.

It's a really good point, but you can have a piece of unpainted copper pipe in a centrally heated house, and it's still brown within a year!

I'm not being argumentative here, I'm genuinely desperate to find a long-term solution to holding a BU set of G6 coins in blazing suspension, not to mention the other coins I hold!

Is it your opinion that a degreased lustred coin, kept in a dry climate, would not significantly tone in our lifetime?

Can I also ask...

Would degreased BU coins in 2x2 flips (in a dry atmosphere) fair well?

Would degreased AND O-oiled coins be at any disadvantage in the same situation?

[pies]

keep the copper away from heat!!!!!!!!

?we use it at work and the steam pipes turn black within a month. look at the copper You buy from b and q still shiny. ?so my advice iis to keep in cool dry conditions

[1949threepence]

keep the copper away from heat!!!!!!!!

?we use it at work and the steam pipes turn black within a month. look at the copper You buy from b and q still shiny. ?so my advice iis to keep in cool dry conditions

Define "heat" & "cool"

I would have thought it went without saying that few would store their coins adjacent to extreme sources of heat. On the other hand many would quite reasonably store them in dry conditions at room temperature between 18C & 22C, say.

[Bernie]

keep the copper away from heat!!!!!!!!

?we use it at work and the steam pipes turn black within a month. look at the copper You buy from b and q still shiny. ?so my advice iis to keep in cool dry conditions

Define "heat" & "cool"

I would have thought it went without saying that few would store their coins adjacent to extreme sources of heat. On the other hand many would quite reasonably store them in dry conditions at room temperature between 18C & 22C, say.

The temperature that they are kept in does not gaurantee them their lustre. To ensure they are not affected by moisture, the temperature of the space they are kept in should idealy be about 4 degrees F above the surrounding space temperature. Moisure will not ingress into a higher temperature. If silica gel is placed with the coins, the crystals need regular monitoring. These crystals will saturate within a few hours in normal conditions. Silica gel comes in different forms. The older type silica gel is dark blue when perfectly dry and turns pink when saturated with moisture. The newer type is brown when dry and turns (blue I think)

The crystals therefore need to be visible and not in cloth bags. Idealy the coin collection and tray of crystals should be kept in multiple sealed clear plastic bags, with the crystals visible. If silica gel crystals are used, they are only beneficial if kept in their dry state. Saturated crystals will be more harmful than none at all. Silica gel crystals can be dried out in a microwave oven. Sealed plastic bags do not stop 100% moisture. Another thing that affects bronze lustre is sulpher. Tobacco smoke contains substances that quickly degrades lustrous bronze coins.

[1949threepence]

keep the copper away from heat!!!!!!!!

?we use it at work and the steam pipes turn black within a month. look at the copper You buy from b and q still shiny. ?so my advice iis to keep in cool dry conditions

Define "heat" & "cool"

I would have thought it went without saying that few would store their coins adjacent to extreme sources of heat. On the other hand many would quite reasonably store them in dry conditions at room temperature between 18C & 22C, say.

The temperature that they are kept in does not gaurantee them their lustre. To ensure they are not affected by moisture, the temperature of the space they are kept in should idealy be about 4 degrees F above the surrounding space temperature. Moisure will not ingress into a higher temperature. If silica gel is placed with the coins, the crystals need regular monitoring. These crystals will saturate within a few hours in normal conditions. Silica gel comes in different forms. The older type silica gel is dark blue when perfectly dry and turns pink when saturated with moisture. The newer type is brown when dry and turns (blue I think)

The crystals therefore need to be visible and not in cloth bags. Idealy the coin collection and tray of crystals should be kept in multiple sealed clear plastic bags, with the crystals visible. If silica gel crystals are used, they are only beneficial if kept in their dry state. Saturated crystals will be more harmful than none at all. Silica gel crystals can be dried out in a microwave oven. Sealed plastic bags do not stop 100% moisture. Another thing that affects bronze lustre is sulpher. Tobacco smoke contains substances that quickly degrades lustrous bronze coins.

Interesting. Thanks for that useful info.

Pleased I don't smoke.......

[rpeddie]

can i be a pain and ask someone to provide info( a website or further reading) onto freeman and how you are managing to see what dies there are? sorta new to this whole shibang

[pies]

If you start collecting copper/ bronze which you have you need this book

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Bronze-Coinage-Great-Britain/dp/1902040783/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1358960148&sr=8-3

Edited January 23, 2013 by pies

[Accumulator]

can i be a pain and ask someone to provide info( a website or further reading) onto freeman and how you are managing to see what dies there are? sorta new to this whole shibang

There are several good books covering bronze coins, but the only further reading on Freeman would be his own book "The Bronze Coinage of Great Britain" by Michael J Freeman.