Bank Dollar 1811 Pattern

[numismatist]

Came across this in a box full of Proofs and Patterns, but only 3 british coins present.

Most were India, Hong Kong , etc. Many were Bronzed or Bronzed and a few Mules. I think

Soho mint productions, but half were from the Victorian era , so Heaton products I think ?

Some were Medallions which related to Boulton and Watt ( in memory )

I looked in my old ESC, and I think perhaps ESC 206 ? though thats listed a Copper

Any ideas were much appreciated...thanks in advance

[numismatist]

Came across this in a box full of Proofs and Patterns, but only 3 british coins present.

Most were India, Hong Kong , etc. Many were Bronzed or Bronzed and a few Mules. I think

Soho mint productions, but half were from the Victorian era , so Heaton products I think ?

Some were Medallions which related to Boulton and Watt ( in memory )

I looked in my old ESC, and I think perhaps ESC 206 ? though thats listed a Copper

Any ideas were much appreciated...thanks in advance

[Peckris]

Came across this in a box full of Proofs and Patterns, but only 3 british coins present.

Most were India, Hong Kong , etc. Many were Bronzed or Bronzed and a few Mules. I think

Soho mint productions, but half were from the Victorian era , so Heaton products I think ?

Some were Medallions which related to Boulton and Watt ( in memory )

I looked in my old ESC, and I think perhaps ESC 206 ? though thats listed a Copper

Any ideas were much appreciated...thanks in advance

What's the reverse? My ESC doesn't give any illustration but does list the reverse of 206 as "Wreath".

[Hussulo]

Came across this in a box full of Proofs and Patterns, but only 3 british coins present.

Most were India, Hong Kong , etc. Many were Bronzed or Bronzed and a few Mules. I think

Soho mint productions, but half were from the Victorian era , so Heaton products I think ?

Some were Medallions which related to Boulton and Watt ( in memory )

I looked in my old ESC, and I think perhaps ESC 206 ? though thats listed a Copper

Any ideas were much appreciated...thanks in advance

Wow what a box, did you buy it? I would be interested to see what else was in it. Are you planning on selling any?

[numismatist]

Just the British for now, had difficulty getting size right to post the reverse

but I think it will post now. It is the wreath type

[azda]

Just the British for now, had difficulty getting size right to post the reverse

but I think it will post now. It is the wreath type

I'd get thar bad Boy slabbed by CGS

[Peckris]

Just the British for now, had difficulty getting size right to post the reverse

but I think it will post now. It is the wreath type

Nice. Rated only 'S' by ESC but hell, it's a great chance to own a pattern that's affordable!

[Hussulo]

From the images it looks legit. A little more worn then others I've seen but still a very nice find.

[numismatist]

Light rubbing on all the larger coins in the box as all just loose.

I will get photos of the other two british I got, Cartwheel penny

and 1799 Farthing, both Bronze or a least Bronzed. These last 2

are listed as Bronzed Proofs , but the 1811 Pattern is just refered

to as "Copper"in ESC. With so many of the Foreign appearing Bronzed

(about 50% of them) and said to have come seemingly about 100 years

ago from the old Soho Mint I feel there must be some so far unknown

types in the old box. Even the Medallions of Boulton and Watt that

were in the box (1871 by moore) all have a differant finish, from

lustrous copper to dark bronze , so many some are Trial strikings.

[numismatist]

Cartwheel Penny Obv...anyone know its exact listing reference ...thanks

[numismatist]

and the reverse

[numismatist]

and the Farthing...again does anyone know its exact ref...thanks

[numismatist]

and the Farthing reverse

[Peckris]

The penny would be one of Peck proofs KP14 through KP20. It's all down to the number of leaves and berries, gunports on the ship, the nature of the K . : , olive branch leaves, waves, etc. Most of those include a bronzed variety, ranging from S to VR. If you don't have access to Peck, I can summarise each KP for you.

The farthing looks a little less convincing, but it may just be the photo. If a genuine proof, it would be KF6 through KF10, which have minor differences, mostly the dot on the lowest fold of drapery, and die flaws in the legend.

[numismatist]

Thanks all, and Peckris for the narrowing down . Regret most of my books went years ago

including my Pecks. Just shows you never know when needed !

[azda]

and the Farthing reverse

This also has a die clog, the bottom line of the B in BRITANNIA is missing

[Rob]

Came across this in a box full of Proofs and Patterns, but only 3 british coins present.

Most were India, Hong Kong , etc. Many were Bronzed or Bronzed and a few Mules. I think

Soho mint productions, but half were from the Victorian era , so Heaton products I think ?

Some were Medallions which related to Boulton and Watt ( in memory )

I looked in my old ESC, and I think perhaps ESC 206 ? though thats listed a Copper

Any ideas were much appreciated...thanks in advance

This is a complicated business. That looks bronzed, but whether it is post-mint or not I wouldn't like to say. There are original Soho strikes and Taylor restrikes which are not always easy to distinguish unless Taylor's repair work is apparent. Both copper and bronzed exist for most types. i.e. if ESC says copper or bronzed only, then assume that the other probably exists as ESC is less than complete. As a rule of thumb, most restrikes are bronzed, but the bronzing isn't as good as that of Soho pieces tending to be a lighter tone and slightly uneven.

[numismatist]

Thanks all for the input, I dont think I had heard of Taylor. Just done a quick google

search and I see W J Taylor goes back to 1848 and got hold of the old Soho Mint dies

so his restrikes go back over 150 years , so I see what "Rob" means by complications.

I came across also the "Copper Corner" and see they seem to have a vast amount of Coins

direct from the Boulton Family . Anyone know when the Boultons sold their Collection .?

I think the small Collection I saw dates back to circa 1900 and is believed to have been

given to a retiring mint worker. So the possibilities are truely endless ,thanks to "Rob"

for opening up the floodgates into all this.

[Peckris]

Thanks all for the input, I dont think I had heard of Taylor. Just done a quick google

search and I see W J Taylor goes back to 1848 and got hold of the old Soho Mint dies

so his restrikes go back over 150 years , so I see what "Rob" means by complications.

I came across also the "Copper Corner" and see they seem to have a vast amount of Coins

direct from the Boulton Family . Anyone know when the Boultons sold their Collection .?

I think the small Collection I saw dates back to circa 1900 and is believed to have been

given to a retiring mint worker. So the possibilities are truely endless ,thanks to "Rob"

for opening up the floodgates into all this.

Yes, this is where Peck is so valuable as his coverage of the Soho Mint and all the Taylor restrikes, is unsurpassed. Though "C W Rob" is our home grown expert on all this. The Taylor story is fascinating, as he inherited the Soho dies/punches with varying degrees of damage and rusting, some of which he repaired himself, and some which he used complete with rust spots etc. He also paired obverse and reverse dies together which had never been paired at Soho so those are easy to identify. And of course he was quite free to do all this as the Soho currency was no longer legal tender.

[Rob]

Thanks all for the input, I dont think I had heard of Taylor. Just done a quick google

search and I see W J Taylor goes back to 1848 and got hold of the old Soho Mint dies

so his restrikes go back over 150 years , so I see what "Rob" means by complications.

I came across also the "Copper Corner" and see they seem to have a vast amount of Coins

direct from the Boulton Family . Anyone know when the Boultons sold their Collection .?

I think the small Collection I saw dates back to circa 1900 and is believed to have been

given to a retiring mint worker. So the possibilities are truely endless ,thanks to "Rob"

for opening up the floodgates into all this.

The Watt family connection was sold through Morton & Eden in 2002. The Boulton family coins were sold via Tim Millett over the next few years. This info is as on the copper corner site, though there may be a few more coins to come out. The section of the copper corner site dedicated to the coins makes no mention of the close working relationship between Matthew Piers Watt Boulton (d.1912) and W J Taylor. Matthew Boulton's grandson was in it up to his eyeballs with Taylor and the coins recently released onto the market are almost exclusively restrikes. The 2006 update on the copper corner site was essentially rationalised by Teg and myself as the site owner didn't appreciate the full extent of the co-operation between the two men, nor could he explain other evidence provided by the coins - I guess a little acknowledgement for the verbatim rationalisation wouldn't have gone amiss.

Taylor was in Australia throughout the 1850s and the restrikes are generally considered to have appeared from 1862 onwards. Taylor made relatively few copper restrikes, most being bronzed as this helped to camouflage the extensive repair work done to the dies.

[Rob]

Light rubbing on all the larger coins in the box as all just loose.

I will get photos of the other two british I got, Cartwheel penny

and 1799 Farthing, both Bronze or a least Bronzed. These last 2

are listed as Bronzed Proofs , but the 1811 Pattern is just refered

to as "Copper"in ESC. With so many of the Foreign appearing Bronzed

(about 50% of them) and said to have come seemingly about 100 years

ago from the old Soho Mint I feel there must be some so far unknown

types in the old box. Even the Medallions of Boulton and Watt that

were in the box (1871 by moore) all have a differant finish, from

lustrous copper to dark bronze , so many some are Trial strikings.

Neither the penny nor the farthing are proofs in my opinion. The penny looks to be P1132 and the farthing P1279. Although there is a large dot in the middle of the lowest shoulder drapery corresponding to KF6, the reverse is incompatible. The easiest check is the edge. Proofs will be grained, whilst the currency pieces will have a grained edge but in a deep groove. See attached for the two types.

[numismatist]

Thanks " Rob " the Farthing is same as the top Photo..grained in a deep grove,

so currency and not proof. Thanks for the Peck numbers, appreciate it ...