1850 shilling

Mat · January 22, 2012

This looks highly suspicious to me, has anyone else seen a 5 stuck like this on the 1850? None of mine have ever had a 5 like that and none of the images I can find have such a 5 either. The colons after REG and F are also flawed.

230731085084

Paulus · January 22, 2012

This looks highly suspicious to me, has anyone else seen a 5 stuck like this on the 1850? None of mine have ever had a 5 like that and none of the images I can find have such a 5 either. The colons after REG and F are also flawed.
230731085084

From the Philippines too! No way I would risk that one ...

Pardon my ignorance (again) but does anyone know why the 1850 is so rare/valuable, the mintage wasn't particularly low?

azda · January 22, 2012

This looks highly suspicious to me, has anyone else seen a 5 stuck like this on the 1850? None of mine have ever had a 5 like that and none of the images I can find have such a 5 either. The colons after REG and F are also flawed.
230731085084

Coin coming from the Phillipines does'nt exactly fill me with confidence

Colin G. · January 22, 2012

The 5 looks very similar to the 5's found on the farthings from the 1850's

VickySilver · January 22, 2012

5 does look pretty soft compared to the rest of the digits. I have seen these 5s before as well.

Rest of the coin looks pretty good. That is a hard call with the area of origin a problem also in my book.

Still, sometimes this is how bargains are had. A "no call" from me with the usual caveat of needing to

see it in hand.

Mat · January 22, 2012

The 5 looks very similar to the 5's found on the farthings from the 1850's

Agreed, my 1852 farthing looks to have a simlar 5.

I got a message back from the seller, you have got to laugh at the responses

Dear icedchetty,

Yes, I look at the catalogue and the drawing looks similar to the "5" of date

regards,

jun

- tonting944

From: icedchetty

To: tonting944

Subject: Other: icedchetty sent a message about Great Britain 1850 Queen Victoria One Shilling. Silver #230731085084

Sent Date: Jan-21-12 17:02:41 PST

Dear tonting944,

Hello, please can you confirm that the coin is genuine?

I have never seen such a strange 5 in any 1850 shillings.

Regards

Mathew

Rob · January 22, 2012

Hmm. 3 British coins sold or on offer in the last 5 years. An 1850 shilling, a 1934 wreath crown and a 1933 wreath crown. The first two are as rare as they come for type, the last one is flagged in Spink as there being copies circulating. I for one wouldn't consider bidding. If a cast copy, the original has to look similar as far as the date is concerned. I'm not sure the date is the problem, more the location and the selling history. If I had to have 3 British coins for sale at random, I'd certainly have the first two, no question.

Nick · January 22, 2012

I am always a little suspicious of coins that don't appear in the correct eBay category. Nobody looking for an 1850 shilling would think to look in the George V crown category.

Rob · January 22, 2012

I am always a little suspicious of coins that don't appear in the correct eBay category. Nobody looking for an 1850 shilling would think to look in the George V crown category.

That will just be copy and paste from the 1934 listing which wasn't too long ago. Relist an item and change the particulars, I think a lot of people do that and only worry about the category when it is completely at odds. Cuddly toy an 1850 shilling is, not. Most people will search in the general category, even as diverse as country to see what's going off in the near future, and as long as shillings appear under coins, probably any sub-category will do. For me the bigger question is still the short list of items sold.

Edited January 22, 2012 by Rob

Nick · January 22, 2012

I am always a little suspicious of coins that don't appear in the correct eBay category. Nobody looking for an 1850 shilling would think to look in the George V crown category.
That will just be copy and paste from the 1934 listing which wasn't too long ago. Relist an item and change the particulars, I think a lot of people do that and only worry about the category when it is completely at odds. Cuddly toy an 1850 shilling is, not. Most people will search in the general category, even as diverse as country to see what's going off in the near future, and as long as shillings appear under coins, probably any sub-category will do. For me the bigger question is still the short list of items sold.

I agree - I wouldn't touch this one with a stack of barge poles end on end.

Looks like I may have to change my stored eBay searches as I didn't see this one. I wonder how many others I have missed by only searching the correct categories.

Gollum · January 22, 2012

His feedback says a lot too me as well, over 73 with one buyer, 80+ from another and all his buyers seem to be multiples from many of the same names and I have never seen one seller have so many NLR's in their feedback either.

Mat · January 22, 2012

His feedback says a lot too me as well, over 73 with one buyer, 80+ from another and all his buyers seem to be multiples from many of the same names and I have never seen one seller have so many NLR's in their feedback either.

Good spot! This was typically the trend of the seller that had 2000+ feedback and sold the Â£2m worth of gold Kugers that didnt exist a few years ago.

Gollum · January 22, 2012

His feedback says a lot too me as well, over 73 with one buyer, 80+ from another and all his buyers seem to be multiples from many of the same names and I have never seen one seller have so many NLR's in their feedback either.
Good spot! This was typically the trend of the seller that had 2000+ feedback and sold the Â£2m worth of gold Kugers that didnt exist a few years ago.

Thats the least of it. I would put him on a blocked buyer / seller list. According to toolhaus he has multiple feedback to the same multiple names as a seller and then the buyer. Truly arthur daley.

http://toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/item-fb?User=tonting944&as_Seller=Seller&Limit=0&Search=&Check=Check

Peckris · January 22, 2012

This looks highly suspicious to me, has anyone else seen a 5 stuck like this on the 1850? None of mine have ever had a 5 like that and none of the images I can find have such a 5 either. The colons after REG and F are also flawed.
230731085084
From the Philippines too! No way I would risk that one ...
Pardon my ignorance (again) but does anyone know why the 1850 is so rare/valuable, the mintage wasn't particularly low?

The mintage figures back then were for total minted IN that year, not OF that year. Many's the time the Mint used up a previous year's dies but they were still recorded in the figure for the year they were struck in.

Nick · January 22, 2012

This looks highly suspicious to me, has anyone else seen a 5 stuck like this on the 1850? None of mine have ever had a 5 like that and none of the images I can find have such a 5 either. The colons after REG and F are also flawed.
230731085084
From the Philippines too! No way I would risk that one ...
Pardon my ignorance (again) but does anyone know why the 1850 is so rare/valuable, the mintage wasn't particularly low?
The mintage figures back then were for total minted IN that year, not OF that year. Many's the time the Mint used up a previous year's dies but they were still recorded in the figure for the year they were struck in.

Is there any information out there, for example Royal Mint Annual Reports, that would allow more accurate mintage figures to be compiled?

Peckris · January 22, 2012

This looks highly suspicious to me, has anyone else seen a 5 stuck like this on the 1850? None of mine have ever had a 5 like that and none of the images I can find have such a 5 either. The colons after REG and F are also flawed.
230731085084
From the Philippines too! No way I would risk that one ...
Pardon my ignorance (again) but does anyone know why the 1850 is so rare/valuable, the mintage wasn't particularly low?
The mintage figures back then were for total minted IN that year, not OF that year. Many's the time the Mint used up a previous year's dies but they were still recorded in the figure for the year they were struck in.
Is there any information out there, for example Royal Mint Annual Reports, that would allow more accurate mintage figures to be compiled?

Unfortunately not, not official figures. The Mint would refer to their own records which would show the wrong figure. You'd have to rely on a Freeman doing a large survey, but those become less and less reliable over time.

declanwmagee · January 22, 2012

His feedback says a lot too me as well, over 73 with one buyer, 80+ from another and all his buyers seem to be multiples from many of the same names and I have never seen one seller have so many NLR's in their feedback either.

What's an NLR then, Garry?

Nick · January 22, 2012

His feedback says a lot too me as well, over 73 with one buyer, 80+ from another and all his buyers seem to be multiples from many of the same names and I have never seen one seller have so many NLR's in their feedback either.
What's an NLR then, Garry?

I assume it's: no longer a registered user.

Paulus · January 23, 2012

This looks highly suspicious to me, has anyone else seen a 5 stuck like this on the 1850? None of mine have ever had a 5 like that and none of the images I can find have such a 5 either. The colons after REG and F are also flawed.
230731085084
From the Philippines too! No way I would risk that one ...
Pardon my ignorance (again) but does anyone know why the 1850 is so rare/valuable, the mintage wasn't particularly low?
The mintage figures back then were for total minted IN that year, not OF that year. Many's the time the Mint used up a previous year's dies but they were still recorded in the figure for the year they were struck in.
Is there any information out there, for example Royal Mint Annual Reports, that would allow more accurate mintage figures to be compiled?
Unfortunately not, not official figures. The Mint would refer to their own records which would show the wrong figure. You'd have to rely on a Freeman doing a large survey, but those become less and less reliable over time.

I am partially enlightened, thanks ... does anyone know how many 1850 shillings were minted then? (roughly?)

Nick · January 23, 2012

This looks highly suspicious to me, has anyone else seen a 5 stuck like this on the 1850? None of mine have ever had a 5 like that and none of the images I can find have such a 5 either. The colons after REG and F are also flawed.
230731085084
From the Philippines too! No way I would risk that one ...
Pardon my ignorance (again) but does anyone know why the 1850 is so rare/valuable, the mintage wasn't particularly low?
The mintage figures back then were for total minted IN that year, not OF that year. Many's the time the Mint used up a previous year's dies but they were still recorded in the figure for the year they were struck in.
Is there any information out there, for example Royal Mint Annual Reports, that would allow more accurate mintage figures to be compiled?
Unfortunately not, not official figures. The Mint would refer to their own records which would show the wrong figure. You'd have to rely on a Freeman doing a large survey, but those become less and less reliable over time.
I am partially enlightened, thanks ... does anyone know how many 1850 shillings were minted then? (roughly?)

No, but definitely fewer than the 685,000 figure that is stated in ESC and Davies. It is by far the rarest date of the Victorian shillings.

Rob · January 23, 2012

I am partially enlightened, thanks ... does anyone know how many 1850 shillings were minted then? (roughly?)
No, but definitely fewer than the 685,000 figure that is stated in ESC and Davies. It is by far the rarest date of the Victorian shillings.

Anyone like to make an educated guess how many are left? 2 or 3 dozen perhaps with the number in high grade in low single digits?

Edited January 23, 2012 by Rob

VickySilver · January 23, 2012

I think not as rare as quite that in the lower grades, IMO maybe 200. EF and above?Yikes! I might hazard a gues of 5-10 excluding museums???

VickySilver · January 23, 2012

Overall rarity: Might rank it after the 1839 currency half crown, maybe, and the 1854 and 1863 florins. 1853 Britannia currency groat is pretty rare as well & high grade 54 and 93 Jub 6d's.

Others?

Gollum · January 23, 2012

His feedback says a lot too me as well, over 73 with one buyer, 80+ from another and all his buyers seem to be multiples from many of the same names and I have never seen one seller have so many NLR's in their feedback either.
What's an NLR then, Garry?

No Longer Registered, or NARU take your pick Declan

Peckris · January 23, 2012

I am partially enlightened, thanks ... does anyone know how many 1850 shillings were minted then? (roughly?)
No, but definitely fewer than the 685,000 figure that is stated in ESC and Davies. It is by far the rarest date of the Victorian shillings.
Anyone like to make an educated guess how many are left? 2 or 3 dozen perhaps with the number in high grade in low single digits?

Unfortunately the phrase "educated guess" begs more questions than it answers. There are just too many imponderables :

- First, the stated mintage figure which as we all know is misleading and probably includes very many dated 1849 (approximately the same mintage but not rare at all)

- second, the number that might have been swallowed up after 1920 or 1947 when the banks withdrew silver

- third, the distorting effect of commoner dates being now less common in relation to 1850 as a result of collectors absorbing 99.9% of all remaining 1850s since the 1950s, but at the same time absorbing a much lower % of common dates, e.g. from 1966-71, 1980, etc

- fourth, the lack of any Freeman-like survey AFAIK to base any educated guesswork on

It's probably true to say "we'll never know".

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