Can anyone help with this head type?

[azda]

A few to choose from on these shillings. Its 1879 die number 22 above, Spink gives A5 A6 aand A7 for the same year, the differences are so subtle it peeeeeses me off anyone help? Ok i'm at A5 Or A6 because A7 was 1880 onwards, ok can't be A5 either as there's no die numbers for these, does that leave the A6?

Edited January 14, 2011 by azda

[Peckris]

A few to choose from on these shillings. Its 1879 die number 22 above, Spink gives A5 A6 aand A7 for the same year, the differences are so subtle it peeeeeses me off anyone help? Ok i'm at A5 Or A6 because A7 was 1880 onwards, ok can't be A5 either as there's no die numbers for these, does that leave the A6?

There's an Extremely rare 1879 A7 according to Spink (3907A) - but you're right, the differences are very subtle, and beyond me I'm afraid. My type collecting doesn't extend thus far.

[azda]

A few to choose from on these shillings. Its 1879 die number 22 above, Spink gives A5 A6 aand A7 for the same year, the differences are so subtle it peeeeeses me off anyone help? Ok i'm at A5 Or A6 because A7 was 1880 onwards, ok can't be A5 either as there's no die numbers for these, does that leave the A6?

There's an Extremely rare 1879 A7 according to Spink (3907A) - but you're right, the differences are very subtle, and beyond me I'm afraid. My type collecting doesn't extend thus far.

The Extremely rare type is the 3906A (type A6) the 3907A is also 1879 but normal type, BUT..... ESC states that the A7 was older 4th head, still no nearer lol

[Peckris]

A few to choose from on these shillings. Its 1879 die number 22 above, Spink gives A5 A6 aand A7 for the same year, the differences are so subtle it peeeeeses me off anyone help? Ok i'm at A5 Or A6 because A7 was 1880 onwards, ok can't be A5 either as there's no die numbers for these, does that leave the A6?

There's an Extremely rare 1879 A7 according to Spink (3907A) - but you're right, the differences are very subtle, and beyond me I'm afraid. My type collecting doesn't extend thus far.

The Extremely rare type is the 3906A (type A6) the 3907A is also 1879 but normal type, BUT..... ESC states that the A7 was older 4th head, still no nearer lol

Not according to my Spink - 3906A is merely scarce (double 'normal' prices), 3907A is as I said.

[azda]

Your spink is 6 Years our of Date peck old friend, the 2011 states its the number i quoted As extremely rare

[argentumandcoins]

I thought Spunk was a price guide?

Using reference books (Davies and ESC) it is Davies number 910 obv 6 rev B and ESC 1332 (type A6)

[azda]

I thought Spunk was a price guide?

Using reference books (Davies and ESC) it is Davies number 910 obv 6 rev B and ESC 1332 (type A6)

Welcome back John. Thanks for the confirmation. I was using Spink 2011 and ESC but it was still difficult to determine which head type, now i'm only quoting the Spink 2011 here which states its 3906A it also says "uncertain to exist as normal coin or proof?" So now it exists apparently although no price is quoted for this type. So should this now go into unconfirmed varities lol

Edited January 15, 2011 by azda

[argentumandcoins]

I thought Spunk was a price guide?

Using reference books (Davies and ESC) it is Davies number 910 obv 6 rev B and ESC 1332 (type A6)

Welcome back John. Thanks for the confirmation. I was using Spink 2011 and ESC but it was still difficult to determine which head type, now i'm only quoting the Spink 2011 here which states its 3906A it also says "uncertain to exist as normal coin or proof?" So now it exists apparently although no price is quoted for this type. So should this now go into unconfirmed varities lol

I think you can forget what Spunk says about this coin Dave. You have to remember that they are not experts in the field of varieties and they are not producing a reference book, merely a price guide. It isn't too long since that they totally arsed up pictures for the 1897 high tide penny and I had quite a few punters that year telling me they had one because it was the same as the picture in Spunk. In their defence it is a massive undertaking to compile the yearly price guide, trying to keep on top of market trends and new discoveries.

Peter Davies and before him Seaby/Rayner have identified this type and I think I would trust their tomes a good deal more!

[SionGilbey]

I've had a look through Spink as well and I'm stumped.

P.S.

Spink = Coin price guide.

Spunk = particularly vulgar term for semen.

[azda]

I thought Spunk was a price guide?

Using reference books (Davies and ESC) it is Davies number 910 obv 6 rev B and ESC 1332 (type A6)

Welcome back John. Thanks for the confirmation. I was using Spink 2011 and ESC but it was still difficult to determine which head type, now i'm only quoting the Spink 2011 here which states its 3906A it also says "uncertain to exist as normal coin or proof?" So now it exists apparently although no price is quoted for this type. So should this now go into unconfirmed varities lol

I think you can forget what Spunk says about this coin Dave. You have to remember that they are not experts in the field of varieties and they are not producing a reference book, merely a price guide. It isn't too long since that they totally arsed up pictures for the 1897 high tide penny and I had quite a few punters that year telling me they had one because it was the same as the picture in Spunk. In their defence it is a massive undertaking to compile the yearly price guide, trying to keep on top of market trends and new discoveries.

Peter Davies and before him Seaby/Rayner have identified this type and I think I would trust their tomes a good deal more!

Well i kinda thought Spink was out of touch with this type considering Rayners ESC identified it, but Spink also identified it in their 2009 book yet in 2011 cannot, althought in 2009 the have no price guide, just quotes it as extremely rare, 2010 there's not even an entry, only for the proof of the same type and 2011, their quote what i quoted from their book. They really should keep up with themselves. ESC does say that its an R2 so pretty pleased with the find.

Surprised there's not much excitement about it though, although i assume it's not to everyones taste. Spink does quote the A5 though at 450 quid in VF so i wonder what this would fetch considering its rarity.

Edited January 16, 2011 by azda

[Peckris]

I thought Spunk was a price guide?

Using reference books (Davies and ESC) it is Davies number 910 obv 6 rev B and ESC 1332 (type A6)

Welcome back John. Thanks for the confirmation. I was using Spink 2011 and ESC but it was still difficult to determine which head type, now i'm only quoting the Spink 2011 here which states its 3906A it also says "uncertain to exist as normal coin or proof?" So now it exists apparently although no price is quoted for this type. So should this now go into unconfirmed varities lol

I think you can forget what Spunk says about this coin Dave. You have to remember that they are not experts in the field of varieties and they are not producing a reference book, merely a price guide. It isn't too long since that they totally arsed up pictures for the 1897 high tide penny and I had quite a few punters that year telling me they had one because it was the same as the picture in Spunk. In their defence it is a massive undertaking to compile the yearly price guide, trying to keep on top of market trends and new discoveries.

Peter Davies and before him Seaby/Rayner have identified this type and I think I would trust their tomes a good deal more!

I can confirm this - I got the 'high relief portrait / recut portrait' George V varieties put into the Spink book, and sent them scans of both types of 1921 shilling obverse (nose to S or VS) and they've got the two types the wrong bl**dy way round

[azda]

I thought Spunk was a price guide?

Using reference books (Davies and ESC) it is Davies number 910 obv 6 rev B and ESC 1332 (type A6)

Welcome back John. Thanks for the confirmation. I was using Spink 2011 and ESC but it was still difficult to determine which head type, now i'm only quoting the Spink 2011 here which states its 3906A it also says "uncertain to exist as normal coin or proof?" So now it exists apparently although no price is quoted for this type. So should this now go into unconfirmed varities lol

I think you can forget what Spunk says about this coin Dave. You have to remember that they are not experts in the field of varieties and they are not producing a reference book, merely a price guide. It isn't too long since that they totally arsed up pictures for the 1897 high tide penny and I had quite a few punters that year telling me they had one because it was the same as the picture in Spunk. In their defence it is a massive undertaking to compile the yearly price guide, trying to keep on top of market trends and new discoveries.

Peter Davies and before him Seaby/Rayner have identified this type and I think I would trust their tomes a good deal more!

I can confirm this - I got the 'high relief portrait / recut portrait' George V varieties put into the Spink book, and sent them scans of both types of 1921 shilling obverse (nose to S or VS) and they've got the two types the wrong bl**dy way round

Then maybe Peckris, they also have those numbers wrong, as the 3906A is definately the coin we're talking about in this thread, unless they've adjusted numbers somewhere, but 3906A is the A6 type of extreme rarity, which incidently i bought

Edited January 16, 2011 by azda

[Peckris]

I thought Spunk was a price guide?

Using reference books (Davies and ESC) it is Davies number 910 obv 6 rev B and ESC 1332 (type A6)

Welcome back John. Thanks for the confirmation. I was using Spink 2011 and ESC but it was still difficult to determine which head type, now i'm only quoting the Spink 2011 here which states its 3906A it also says "uncertain to exist as normal coin or proof?" So now it exists apparently although no price is quoted for this type. So should this now go into unconfirmed varities lol

I think you can forget what Spunk says about this coin Dave. You have to remember that they are not experts in the field of varieties and they are not producing a reference book, merely a price guide. It isn't too long since that they totally arsed up pictures for the 1897 high tide penny and I had quite a few punters that year telling me they had one because it was the same as the picture in Spunk. In their defence it is a massive undertaking to compile the yearly price guide, trying to keep on top of market trends and new discoveries.

Peter Davies and before him Seaby/Rayner have identified this type and I think I would trust their tomes a good deal more!

I can confirm this - I got the 'high relief portrait / recut portrait' George V varieties put into the Spink book, and sent them scans of both types of 1921 shilling obverse (nose to S or VS) and they've got the two types the wrong bl**dy way round

Then maybe Peckris, they also have those numbers wrong, as the 3906A is definately the coin we're talking about in this thread, unless they've adjusted numbers somewhere, but 3906A is the A6 type of extreme rarity, which incidently i bought

My advice would be - DON'T JUST BUY ON WHAT'S IN SPINK! Check other sources first.

[azda]

I thought Spunk was a price guide?

Using reference books (Davies and ESC) it is Davies number 910 obv 6 rev B and ESC 1332 (type A6)

Welcome back John. Thanks for the confirmation. I was using Spink 2011 and ESC but it was still difficult to determine which head type, now i'm only quoting the Spink 2011 here which states its 3906A it also says "uncertain to exist as normal coin or proof?" So now it exists apparently although no price is quoted for this type. So should this now go into unconfirmed varities lol

I think you can forget what Spunk says about this coin Dave. You have to remember that they are not experts in the field of varieties and they are not producing a reference book, merely a price guide. It isn't too long since that they totally arsed up pictures for the 1897 high tide penny and I had quite a few punters that year telling me they had one because it was the same as the picture in Spunk. In their defence it is a massive undertaking to compile the yearly price guide, trying to keep on top of market trends and new discoveries.

Peter Davies and before him Seaby/Rayner have identified this type and I think I would trust their tomes a good deal more!

I can confirm this - I got the 'high relief portrait / recut portrait' George V varieties put into the Spink book, and sent them scans of both types of 1921 shilling obverse (nose to S or VS) and they've got the two types the wrong bl**dy way round

Then maybe Peckris, they also have those numbers wrong, as the 3906A is definately the coin we're talking about in this thread, unless they've adjusted numbers somewhere, but 3906A is the A6 type of extreme rarity, which incidently i bought

My advice would be - DON'T JUST BUY ON WHAT'S IN SPINK! Check other sources first.

I did, hence i asked in this post before i decided to buy it, but i was almost sure of what it was, i was looking for confirmation of my thought process, although spink 2009 had nor price for it, just quoted as extremely rare, 2010 it just quoted the proof and nothing for circulation and 2011, well they don't even think it exists in 2011 yet they did in 2009

Edited January 16, 2011 by azda

[VickySilver]

Somewhere I believe I have one of these as well, and purchased from DNW some years ago. Even if rare, I counsel not getting too excited as it requires demand to bring price...

[azda]

What did u Pay for yours vicky if you don't mind me asking, and what grade?

[Rob]

Better late than never.

The coin appears to be the 4th bust with die number (S3907A). Davies records the 3rd head up to die 12, the 4th up to die 26.

Your coin is Davies obverse 6 and shows a slightly more pronounced bump in the hair detail between fillet and nape than does his obverse 7 which is standard from 1880 onwards. Attached is a comparison between the 3rd & 4th heads. The dates from left to right are 1873, 1872 (both Davies obv.5) & 1883 (Davies obv.7) which are unambiguous types. I use the hair detail to check the 1878 & 1879. The 3rd head which is the two on the left have hair that reverses in direction below the fillet. The 4th has groups of parallel lines that are a continous curve. The fillet has bands top and bottom on the 3rd head and the hair detail behind it on the group of strands above the bottom group is more pronounced and in higher relief on the 4th, seen to good effect in the image.

Edited January 28, 2011 by Rob

[azda]

Rob, thanks for your detailed reply and going to the trouble of showing me the differences in these head types. I've since emailed the seller to ask for a refund because he stated it was rare and had took this rarity from Krause. He replied and said normally he wouldn't, but becuase i've bought a few from him that he would do so.

He then asked me to explain why it wasn't the rare type, so i copied and pasted most of your mails and scan to him and also suggested he buy a couple of English books on specifics as Krause is more of a general World coin book and doesn't really detail rarities as such.

Waiting for a response from him, if any, i hope all that science didn't scare him lol

Thanks again