1874 H penny F73

[davidrj]

Continuing my high resolution scans of bun pennies in my junk box

Opinions on this one please

Freeman F73 - similar to Gouby BP 1874 Nj with the sloping 1, but the 7 is broken and I think there is evidence of a 4 over 4

David

[Peckris]

Continuing my high resolution scans of bun pennies in my junk box

Opinions on this one please

Freeman F73 - similar to Gouby BP 1874 Nj with the sloping 1, but the 7 is broken and I think there is evidence of a 4 over 4

David

??? How did you get a coin with the design incuse instead of in relief?

[Fubar]

A trick of the eye.

I have the same problem if your seeing the date etc., as impressed rather than raised.

I have to stare at it for a while and force myself to see it properly.

Something to do either with dominant eye or astigmatism.

Can never remember which.

Edited August 22, 2010 by Fubar

[declanwmagee]

A trick of the eye.

I have the same problem if your seeing the date etc., as impressed rather than raised.

I have to stare at it for a while and force myself to see it properly.

Something to do either with dominant eye or astigmatism.

Can never remember which.

maybe it's because the eye assumes that light comes from above (the sun). The reflections on the lower edge of the numerals must then be below the surface of the coin. If you look at it assuming the light source is from below, it suddenly makes sense.

[davidrj]

A trick of the eye.

I have the same problem if your seeing the date etc., as impressed rather than raised.

I have to stare at it for a while and force myself to see it properly.

Something to do either with dominant eye or astigmatism.

Can never remember which.

maybe it's because the eye assumes that light comes from above (the sun). The reflections on the lower edge of the numerals must then be below the surface of the coin. If you look at it assuming the light source is from below, it suddenly makes sense.

Perception is a funny thing! Looked fine on my desktop machine, but now relooking at it on my laptop, I get the incuse effect, however it goes normal if i turn the laptop upside down! so I buy your sunshine explanation

[Peckris]

A trick of the eye.

I have the same problem if your seeing the date etc., as impressed rather than raised.

I have to stare at it for a while and force myself to see it properly.

Something to do either with dominant eye or astigmatism.

Can never remember which.

maybe it's because the eye assumes that light comes from above (the sun). The reflections on the lower edge of the numerals must then be below the surface of the coin. If you look at it assuming the light source is from below, it suddenly makes sense.

Perception is a funny thing! Looked fine on my desktop machine, but now relooking at it on my laptop, I get the incuse effect, however it goes normal if i turn the laptop upside down! so I buy your sunshine explanation

Fascinating Jim! I tried everything - and even tried squinting. After that it went 'relief' for about one second, then almost immediately reverted to incuse again. Now, however much I try, it refuses to change. Oddly enough, I can get the bottom of the '1' to be in relief, but then as soon as I glance at the '8', it's all incuse again.

Remember those 3D pictures in the 1990s, the ones you had to really stare at to get them to go 3D? I always had a big problem seeing those, so perhaps it's my eyesight.

[argentumandcoins]

A trick of the eye.

I have the same problem if your seeing the date etc., as impressed rather than raised.

I have to stare at it for a while and force myself to see it properly.

Something to do either with dominant eye or astigmatism.

Can never remember which.

maybe it's because the eye assumes that light comes from above (the sun). The reflections on the lower edge of the numerals must then be below the surface of the coin. If you look at it assuming the light source is from below, it suddenly makes sense.

Perception is a funny thing! Looked fine on my desktop machine, but now relooking at it on my laptop, I get the incuse effect, however it goes normal if i turn the laptop upside down! so I buy your sunshine explanation

Thanks David, I just put my back out doing a handstand in my office to see the image properly

Getting back to the point, I think the problem is that your scanner has given a negative image?

The coin probably has a re-punched 4 but even as an avid Penny collector I do not ascribe any great import to things such as that. A mis-punched number i.e. an incorrect number or an overdate is more my bag.

[davidrj]

Thanks David, I just put my back out doing a handstand in my office to see the image properly

Getting back to the point, I think the problem is that your scanner has given a negative image?

Nothing wrong with the scanner, this is our brains having difficulty interpreting an image at this magnification, here's the original scan

Now if you really want incuse, try this poor 1880 penny with odd corrosion

David

[davidrj]

Today's find, a much nicer 1880 penny with 8 over 8 in date (Gouby BP 1880 Af)

I've now trawled through the first 20 years of my bun penny junk box, 1881 onwards to follow. Makes me wonder how many of these alleged rare varieties are just things that have gone unnoticed in many collections.

David

[Peckris]

Thanks David, I just put my back out doing a handstand in my office to see the image properly

Getting back to the point, I think the problem is that your scanner has given a negative image?

Nothing wrong with the scanner, this is our brains having difficulty interpreting an image at this magnification, here's the original scan

Now if you really want incuse, try this poor 1880 penny with odd corrosion

David

Amazing. Now you've showed the smaller (original) scan, I scrolled back up thinking it wouldn't make any difference, but I saw it relief instead of incuse at last!

The lower picture DEFINITELY has an incuse obverse legend! How do I know? Because I was seeing the bust in normal relief at the same time.

[1949threepence]

Today's find, a much nicer 1880 penny with 8 over 8 in date (Gouby BP 1880 Af)

I've now trawled through the first 20 years of my bun penny junk box, 1881 onwards to follow. Makes me wonder how many of these alleged rare varieties are just things that have gone unnoticed in many collections.

David

I bet many of them have gone totally unnoticed in collections, especially by non experts. Even if they have been noticed, some probably wonder what they are, or that it's some sort of striking error ~ which in a way, I suppose it is.

[RLC35]

David,

You might want to send Michael Gouby a pic of the 1880, 8 over 8 that you found. I think he is tracking the new found items that are showcased in his new book (like your 1880, 8 over 8).

[azda]

I now check EVERY Penny with my new USB micrsoscope, well, you never know what you may find

[Peckris]

+ + + STOP PRESS + + +

+ + + IMPORTANT DISCOVERY + + +

I've just been checking through my bun penny collection, and I've found an example with NO EVIDENCE OF ANY VARIETY OUT OF THE NORMAL. Amazingly, this penny is exactly the same as another I have of the same date, apart from wear.

How about that? Apparently it has been recorded by Peck, Freeman, Satin, and Gouby.

Some of you might find this claim outrageous and impossible to believe, but I assure you, it's true!! And I can put up some scans to show you. How many of you can claim to have anything like this in their own collection? So much for your R18s etc etc etc (yawn).

[Red Riley]

(Chortle!) I was thinking much the same thing.

Look I know it gives some people pleasure but it just strikes me that we are getting bogged down in a morass of meaningless detail and losing some of the fun along the way. Coins to me are enjoyable because they are a piece of history which we can hold in our hands. They provide a link to known people and events of 200, 300, 400 etc. years ago. At a stretch I can understand the interest in relatively major varieties e.g. Victorian pennies with the narrow or wide dates where this is used as a shorthand to cover a whole lot of other differences between the two types. But where the only variation is a minor date width discrepancy or an 'i' pointing to a tooth or a gap, then I'm sorry, but I can't see the fun.

As ever though, if it floats your boat...

(runs and hides)

[scott]

wow... your right, that date looks normal rather then incuse with that other picture

[davidrj]

(Chortle!) I was thinking much the same thing.

Look I know it gives some people pleasure but it just strikes me that we are getting bogged down in a morass of meaningless detail and losing some of the fun along the way. Coins to me are enjoyable because they are a piece of history which we can hold in our hands. They provide a link to known people and events of 200, 300, 400 etc. years ago. At a stretch I can understand the interest in relatively major varieties e.g. Victorian pennies with the narrow or wide dates where this is used as a shorthand to cover a whole lot of other differences between the two types. But where the only variation is a minor date width discrepancy or an 'i' pointing to a tooth or a gap, then I'm sorry, but I can't see the fun.

As ever though, if it floats your boat...

(runs and hides)

Well it's kept me out of mischief this week whilst it has been too wet to play in the garden, and I have honed my imaging skills

I'm not too sure myself over all of Michael's date widths, some are very minor, but one could argue that they do represent different dies, even though there was no intent for a design change.

We probably need a hierarchy of varieties

DELIBERATE: Actual changes to the design, the Peck, Freeman, Gouby Die descriptions (this would include the large and small dates in 1874-7 and 1879, plus the varieties in 1895, 1897 and 1911 and the recessed ears 1915-6, etc)

INCIDENTAL: Repairs and repunches (I'd include the "minor" date spacings here, but also the N over Z and overdates)

ACCIDENTAL: Missing serifs, F for E, filled letters etc; Flaws:- O'NE, bird's foot etc

Not too sure where one puts things like the 1903 with an open 3, we have no way of knowing whether there was a deliberate attempt to change the font, or just someone picked up a 3 punch that was intended for some foreign issue

I've been scanning my accumulation for fun, but some of these "varieties" are attracting real money, so someone loves them!

David

[davidrj]

I've been scanning my accumulation for fun, but some of these "varieties" are attracting real money, so someone loves them!

David

Here's one dealer who is now using Gouby references Gary Schindler look at his stuff listed this evening

David

[RLC35]

Dave,

Gary Schindler is "Bronze & Copper Collector" on this Forum.

[davidrj]

Dave,

Gary Schindler is "Bronze & Copper Collector" on this Forum.

Just as well I wasn't rude about him! That's the problem with nommes de plume

David

[Peckris]

(Chortle!) I was thinking much the same thing.

Look I know it gives some people pleasure but it just strikes me that we are getting bogged down in a morass of meaningless detail and losing some of the fun along the way. Coins to me are enjoyable because they are a piece of history which we can hold in our hands. They provide a link to known people and events of 200, 300, 400 etc. years ago. At a stretch I can understand the interest in relatively major varieties e.g. Victorian pennies with the narrow or wide dates where this is used as a shorthand to cover a whole lot of other differences between the two types. But where the only variation is a minor date width discrepancy or an 'i' pointing to a tooth or a gap, then I'm sorry, but I can't see the fun.

As ever though, if it floats your boat...

(runs and hides)

Well it's kept me out of mischief this week whilst it has been too wet to play in the garden, and I have honed my imaging skills

I'm not too sure myself over all of Michael's date widths, some are very minor, but one could argue that they do represent different dies, even though there was no intent for a design change.

We probably need a hierarchy of varieties

DELIBERATE: Actual changes to the design, the Peck, Freeman, Gouby Die descriptions (this would include the large and small dates in 1874-7 and 1879, plus the varieties in 1895, 1897 and 1911 and the recessed ears 1915-6, etc)

INCIDENTAL: Repairs and repunches (I'd include the "minor" date spacings here, but also the N over Z and overdates)

ACCIDENTAL: Missing serifs, F for E, filled letters etc; Flaws:- O'NE, bird's foot etc

Not too sure where one puts things like the 1903 with an open 3, we have no way of knowing whether there was a deliberate attempt to change the font, or just someone picked up a 3 punch that was intended for some foreign issue

I've been scanning my accumulation for fun, but some of these "varieties" are attracting real money, so someone loves them!

David

ROFL

But haven't you missed one?

NITPICKER : Requires a microscope to see!