1932 Penny

Red Riley · August 2, 2009

The fact is, I've never seen a 1912/18/19H that wasn't nearly black, and I've never seen a KN that wasn't red/brown.
And, I've never seen an Unc KN in the flesh, but the few pictures I've seen show a very flattened portrait, i.e. not well struck up. Much like my 1919H, which if you look at the legend, shield, etc, appears to have no wear at all, but has the hair detail you would expect on a coin that is about Fine. (And the coin is already a dark colour - almost like a Mint darkened penny but without that gorgeous purple sheen you see on the farthings.)

Will try and post a few images in here when I get time, but I have:

1918KN GVF with some remnants of mint lustre. Toning is heading towards mid-dark brown and not at all KN like. Quite well-struck but a bit 'fluffy'. Good portrait. Heavily ghosted.

1918H GVF+. No lustre, but a mid-brown colour (without the KN red). Extremely well struck, no ghosting.

It may be that it takes some years of circulation for the fully toned colour to appear. Against this however, I also have:

1919H fairly dismal condition - if anybody has my book, you can see it on p20 (plug over!). This can best be described as a kind of dull brown, the colour of well matured cow muck. In my recollection, this was a fairly common tone for 19Hs but not 18Hs which were almost invariably a very dark brown, almost black. The same applied to 12Hs.

I think that what we will find is that, apart perhaps from KNs, there is no consistency across the board. I also think that on the evidence produced so far in this thread (thanks guys!), Heaton's used the same blanks as the RM, whilst King's Norton supplied their own and perhaps topped up the Royal Mint's supplies when these became low.

Would be very interesting if Dave could dig out the Coin Monthly article.

Dg43 · August 2, 2009

Derek

Colin Cooke have a nice Unc 1918kn at the moment, also three (!) 'Bu' 1912h. The website has been re-vamped and the pictures are much better.

Glad to hear that you are an 'ordinary' collector with Vf's and Gvf's - like me!!!

Btw, I bought your book - excellent.

David

Red Riley · August 2, 2009

Derek
Colin Cooke have a nice Unc 1918kn at the moment, also three (!) 'Bu' 1912h. The website has been re-vamped and the pictures are much better.
Glad to hear that you are an 'ordinary' collector with Vf's and Gvf's - like me!!!
Btw, I bought your book - excellent.
David

Thanks for the kind words. Like most collectors I find that money won't quite stretch to the coins I would like!

Derek

scott · August 2, 2009

i found i have a 19908 penny that has gone light brown, similar to the KN penny, although it is approaching fine rather then the usual wear

1949threepence · August 2, 2009

I have seen some 'amateur' research carried out on the George V pennies concerning colour and the composition of the metals. Part of this if I remember right included a letter from the chairman of the Kings Norton company confirming some composition aspects of the metals used. Quite where this came from I am not sure, but I suspect it was an article in Coin Monthly from the 1970s. If I get a chance I'll see if I can find it. Alternatively, Aardhawk seems to be well up on the contents of Coin Monthly and might be able to enlighten us.

That would be superb, and much appreciated.

Derek
Colin Cooke have a nice Unc 1918kn at the moment, also three (!) 'Bu' 1912h. The website has been re-vamped and the pictures are much better.
Glad to hear that you are an 'ordinary' collector with Vf's and Gvf's - like me!!!
Btw, I bought your book - excellent.
David

Magnificent, and at Â£725, a mere snip here is the page it's on Needless to say, I can't afford it !!

1949threepence · August 2, 2009

The fact is, I've never seen a 1912/18/19H that wasn't nearly black, and I've never seen a KN that wasn't red/brown.
And, I've never seen an Unc KN in the flesh, but the few pictures I've seen show a very flattened portrait, i.e. not well struck up. Much like my 1919H, which if you look at the legend, shield, etc, appears to have no wear at all, but has the hair detail you would expect on a coin that is about Fine. (And the coin is already a dark colour - almost like a Mint darkened penny but without that gorgeous purple sheen you see on the farthings.)
Will try and post a few images in here when I get time, but I have:
1918KN GVF with some remnants of mint lustre. Toning is heading towards mid-dark brown and not at all KN like. Quite well-struck but a bit 'fluffy'. Good portrait. Heavily ghosted.
1918H GVF+. No lustre, but a mid-brown colour (without the KN red). Extremely well struck, no ghosting.
It may be that it takes some years of circulation for the fully toned colour to appear. Against this however, I also have:
1919H fairly dismal condition - if anybody has my book, you can see it on p20 (plug over!). This can best be described as a kind of dull brown, the colour of well matured cow muck. In my recollection, this was a fairly common tone for 19Hs but not 18Hs which were almost invariably a very dark brown, almost black. The same applied to 12Hs.
I think that what we will find is that, apart perhaps from KNs, there is no consistency across the board. I also think that on the evidence produced so far in this thread (thanks guys!), Heaton's used the same blanks as the RM, whilst King's Norton supplied their own and perhaps topped up the Royal Mint's supplies when these became low.
Would be very interesting if Dave could dig out the Coin Monthly article.

Seen it ~ typical of a coin of that age with about 50 years heavy circulation behind it.

Excellent book, by the way. If there is any justice, it will become a definitive work. A bible for coin grading.

scott · August 2, 2009

O.O

thats a nice looking coin

Red Riley · August 2, 2009

The fact is, I've never seen a 1912/18/19H that wasn't nearly black, and I've never seen a KN that wasn't red/brown.
And, I've never seen an Unc KN in the flesh, but the few pictures I've seen show a very flattened portrait, i.e. not well struck up. Much like my 1919H, which if you look at the legend, shield, etc, appears to have no wear at all, but has the hair detail you would expect on a coin that is about Fine. (And the coin is already a dark colour - almost like a Mint darkened penny but without that gorgeous purple sheen you see on the farthings.)
Will try and post a few images in here when I get time, but I have:
1918KN GVF with some remnants of mint lustre. Toning is heading towards mid-dark brown and not at all KN like. Quite well-struck but a bit 'fluffy'. Good portrait. Heavily ghosted.
1918H GVF+. No lustre, but a mid-brown colour (without the KN red). Extremely well struck, no ghosting.
It may be that it takes some years of circulation for the fully toned colour to appear. Against this however, I also have:
1919H fairly dismal condition - if anybody has my book, you can see it on p20 (plug over!). This can best be described as a kind of dull brown, the colour of well matured cow muck. In my recollection, this was a fairly common tone for 19Hs but not 18Hs which were almost invariably a very dark brown, almost black. The same applied to 12Hs.
I think that what we will find is that, apart perhaps from KNs, there is no consistency across the board. I also think that on the evidence produced so far in this thread (thanks guys!), Heaton's used the same blanks as the RM, whilst King's Norton supplied their own and perhaps topped up the Royal Mint's supplies when these became low.
Would be very interesting if Dave could dig out the Coin Monthly article.
Seen it ~ typical of a coin of that age with about 50 years heavy circulation behind it.
Excellent book, by the way. If there is any justice, it will become a definitive work. A bible for coin grading.

Once again, thanks for the kind words. The 18KN on the Colin Cooke site is very similar to the one I have, but rather less worn. Detail and particularly colour is much the same, so perhaps this is just a stage they go through.

Peckris · August 2, 2009

Derek
Colin Cooke have a nice Unc 1918kn at the moment, also three (!) 'Bu' 1912h. The website has been re-vamped and the pictures are much better.
Glad to hear that you are an 'ordinary' collector with Vf's and Gvf's - like me!!!
Btw, I bought your book - excellent.
David
Magnificent, and at Â£725, a mere snip here is the page it's on Needless to say, I can't afford it !!

And he has (HAD) a 1933 penny !!!! Well, the Lavrillier pattern, but hey, it's still a 1933... wonder how much it sold for?

That 1918KN is beautifully struck, but the colour looks faded (it's the picture I think). He also has some rather nice 1912H but the prices for those are somewhat overrated for a coin with a mintage of 16,000,000. But I suppose the demand for them is high just so that people can say "I've got a BU H penny!"

I always found that GVF KNs were the hardest to come by. They were the highest grade I could afford but do you think I could ever find one??

scott · August 3, 2009

that 1933 was a gorgeous colour though

the problem with getting one of those in GVF... is the weak strike making them LOOK lower

i was reading up on one of my coins... the 1858 Small Date farthing some interesting stuff on there

1949threepence · August 3, 2009

Just been looking through all the pennies on ebay, and after scrolling through quite a bit of dross, as well as some decent condition coins, I noticed that "H" pennies outnumber "KN" pennies in any condition, by about 5:1.

It has to be said that the vast majority are well worn, but I did come across this nice example which I might bid on myself.

There's another almost UNC one further on, as a buy it now for Â£299. The seller: Morgan9red. Mentioned before on here, I believe.

Peckris · August 3, 2009

Just been looking through all the pennies on ebay, and after scrolling through quite a bit of dross, as well as some decent condition coins, I noticed that "H" pennies outnumber "KN" pennies in any condition, by about 5:1.
It has to be said that the vast majority are well worn, but I did come across this nice example which I might bid on myself.
There's another almost UNC one further on, as a buy it now for Â£299. The seller: Morgan9red. Mentioned before on here, I believe.

That's a rather nice EF example - good luck with it. But I just had a look though morgan9red's listings, and I don't see either 1912H there. Weird.

1949threepence · August 3, 2009

Just been looking through all the pennies on ebay, and after scrolling through quite a bit of dross, as well as some decent condition coins, I noticed that "H" pennies outnumber "KN" pennies in any condition, by about 5:1.
It has to be said that the vast majority are well worn, but I did come across this nice example which I might bid on myself.
There's another almost UNC one further on, as a buy it now for Â£299. The seller: Morgan9red. Mentioned before on here, I believe.
That's a rather nice EF example - good luck with it. But I just had a look though morgan9red's listings, and I don't see either 1912H there. Weird.

No, you're right. It was my error. The actual coin is here. The seller is d-uk-e. Don't know why I thought it was morgan9red. I did see his name, but it must have been another coin.

Peckris · August 3, 2009

Just been looking through all the pennies on ebay, and after scrolling through quite a bit of dross, as well as some decent condition coins, I noticed that "H" pennies outnumber "KN" pennies in any condition, by about 5:1.
It has to be said that the vast majority are well worn, but I did come across this nice example which I might bid on myself.
There's another almost UNC one further on, as a buy it now for Â£299. The seller: Morgan9red. Mentioned before on here, I believe.
That's a rather nice EF example - good luck with it. But I just had a look though morgan9red's listings, and I don't see either 1912H there. Weird.
No, you're right. It was my error. The actual coin is here. The seller is d-uk-e. Don't know why I thought it was morgan9red. I did see his name, but it must have been another coin.

I don't like that Unc example, not at that price. There's slight rubbing on both sides (A.Unc) and the lustre is patchy and uneven. For Â£299 I would be wanting a BU Gem.

To be honest, in your position I would rather bid on other penny, which has a much more even and pleasing appearance (in my opinion.) It looks GEF to my eye.

1949threepence · August 3, 2009

Just been looking through all the pennies on ebay, and after scrolling through quite a bit of dross, as well as some decent condition coins, I noticed that "H" pennies outnumber "KN" pennies in any condition, by about 5:1.
It has to be said that the vast majority are well worn, but I did come across this nice example which I might bid on myself.
There's another almost UNC one further on, as a buy it now for Â£299. The seller: Morgan9red. Mentioned before on here, I believe.
That's a rather nice EF example - good luck with it. But I just had a look though morgan9red's listings, and I don't see either 1912H there. Weird.
No, you're right. It was my error. The actual coin is here. The seller is d-uk-e. Don't know why I thought it was morgan9red. I did see his name, but it must have been another coin.
I don't like that Unc example, not at that price. There's slight rubbing on both sides (A.Unc) and the lustre is patchy and uneven. For Â£299 I would be wanting a BU Gem.
To be honest, in your position I would rather bid on other penny, which has a much more even and pleasing appearance (in my opinion.) It looks GEF to my eye.

Those were my thoughts exactly, Peckris. Book price (Coin Yearbook 2009) suggests Â£150 for an uncirculated example. Even allowing for increased prices, Â£299 seems breathtakingly overpriced for an item that clearly isn't anywhere near BU, and whose obverse looks slightly stained and pitted, admittedly under magnification.

The first example is just shy of UNC, and is pleasing to look at.

Red Riley · August 3, 2009

[
Those were my thoughts exactly, Peckris. Book price (Coin Yearbook 2009) suggests Â£150 for an uncirculated example. Even allowing for increased prices, Â£299 seems breathtakingly overpriced for an item that clearly isn't anywhere near BU, and whose obverse looks slightly stained and pitted, admittedly under magnification.
The first example is just shy of UNC, and is pleasing to look at.

Looks a nice coin. The only wear I can see (but it is only a photo) is on Britannia's shoulder. The king's upper ear is not showing any sign of wear, so for me you may be looking GEF/EF. Just hope it hasn't been photoshopped...

Dg43 · August 3, 2009

Looks a nice coin. The only wear I can see (but it is only a photo) is on Britannia's shoulder. The king's upper ear is not showing any sign of wear, so for me you may be looking GEF/EF. Just hope it hasn't been photoshopped...

If you check out his other coins they are top-whack and mostly over-graded.

Eg: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1887-VICTORIA-SILVER...id=p3911.c0.m14

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1849-VICTORIA-SILVER...id=p3911.c0.m14

Sylvester · August 3, 2009

Good EF! Ha, that shilling wouldn't even grade Good VF, looks more like Yul Brynner than Vicky.

Peckris · August 3, 2009

Looks a nice coin. The only wear I can see (but it is only a photo) is on Britannia's shoulder. The king's upper ear is not showing any sign of wear, so for me you may be looking GEF/EF. Just hope it hasn't been photoshopped...
If you check out his other coins they are top-whack and mostly over-graded.
Eg: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1887-VICTORIA-SILVER...id=p3911.c0.m14
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1849-VICTORIA-SILVER...id=p3911.c0.m14

Are we talking at cross-purposes here? The nice 1912H is from mog461 not d-uk-e, and it's the latter who is being ... shall we say ... a bit optimistic.

1949threepence · August 3, 2009

Looks a nice coin. The only wear I can see (but it is only a photo) is on Britannia's shoulder. The king's upper ear is not showing any sign of wear, so for me you may be looking GEF/EF. Just hope it hasn't been photoshopped...

I hope not, and I'm going to take a chance on it. If I win I'll let you know whether it lived up to its photo.

If you check out his other coins they are top-whack and mostly over-graded.
Eg: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1887-VICTORIA-SILVER...id=p3911.c0.m14
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1849-VICTORIA-SILVER...id=p3911.c0.m14

Yes, as Peckris says, the seller of the better 1912H is mog461, not d-uk-e.

Those coins are heavily overgraded. Barely VF, IMO.

scott · August 3, 2009

i love that top 1912 H, strike looks almost perfect

1949threepence · August 7, 2009

i love that top 1912 H, strike looks almost perfect

Yeah well, I bid, but failed The winning bid was Â£40.00.

Nice capture for the winner.

Peckris · August 7, 2009

i love that top 1912 H, strike looks almost perfect
Yeah well, I bid, but failed The winning bid was Â£40.00.
Nice capture for the winner.

Oh that's a shame - it was something of a bargain at that price, pity you weren't able to go higher

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