Grading

[Master Jmd]

Do you grade coins from before 1952 as EF if they have lustre?

[Chris Perkins]

Nevermind the lustre, it's the lack of wear that makes a coin UNC. It could have blinding lustre in the low parts but wear on the high parts whatever age it is!

[mint_mark]

Chris is right Master JMD. Lustre depends on environmental conditions, but the grade depends only on wear. You can have unc without lustre, and EF with lots of lustre.

And, if a coin has been cleaned, you can have VF or less with apparent lustre... so don't go relying on that lustre for your grading!

[Half Penny Jon]

Correct, also, if a coin had full lustre, then you would need to grade it carefully because the lustre can sometimes be decieving.

[TomGoodheart]

And on hammered coins, you just gotta go by the detail!

[Rob]

This annoys me.

Two weeks ago I sold this

A few days later it resurfaced as this

Several questions arise.

How can you ever hope to sell at reasonable prices when people lie so obviously? You have to assume that every grade is over the top however good the picture and mark prices down accordingly. This seller has 1100 feedbacks and knows what an UNC or BU coin looks like having sold me a BU full lustre halfpenny in the past. Additionally she knows what a cleaned coin looks like. People will note the feedback number and draw some comfort from it. The note saying we all have our opinion regarding grading is all well and good but nothing more than a getout clause - the UNC in the title is what people will pay attention to. Sadly, the prospective buyer may be a complete novice with a feedback of 2 who may spend a lot of good money before realising the error of his/her ways. Yes, grading is subjective and in the eye of the beholder and there will always be disagreements. Sometimes mistakes are genuinely made, but most of the time they are not.

[Chris Perkins]

Absolutely right, it's tough as a collector if you don't know what you're looking at. It's important to dabble a little with a few dealers and stick with the ones you actually believe.

[krasnaya_vityaz]

I notice a tendency especially with 17th century and earlier coins to *upgrade* them by at least two grades to seemingly account for age etc. Kind of makes you want to send a Harrier after them with a nice Phoenix missile.

[Rob]

I too fail to see how grades can become more age dependant than a measure of wear. Very good for issue is frequently the description and a realistic grade.

[Geordie582]

I agree with all of you! But I must point out that there are a lot of 'dealers' on ebay, many as 'power sellers' who will do anything to earn a buck. As always 'caveat emptor'. With chemical toning and fakes, unfortunately, lots of novices will be burned and there is not much any of us can do about it.

I'll amend that statement! We cn "name & shame" them on this website and hope newcomers find us!

Edited October 31, 2005 by Geordie582

[Peter]

The alternative is slabbing....which we surely don't want.

I've actually bought some George 5th copper off Ebay with no pictures just a grade....I looked at the dealers feedback and he was getting a lot of repeat business....I got great coins at a fraction of book price....but I did my homework.....Caveat Emptor.

Ebay isn't the only problem....dealers lists from which I have used for 30 years vary...I now make adjustments to whom the dealer is.

I've even sent coins back to Colin Cooke (RIP) who actually would tell me if I would like a coin or not when trying to order it.

However some "must have" coins have appeared on less favoured dealers lists so I keep them all coming.

Older copper I hate grading and here I go for Eye appeal.

I'm sure the soon to be new owner of Rob's coin will be very happy....I wouldn't mind it for £15

[Rob]

Just about every dealer or auction house that I have dealt with has graded differently to my perception at some time or other. All bar one has had these items returned, the exception being an item costing pennies and so not cost effective to do so. Having to refund is an occupational hazard for a dealer.

[Geordie582]

With all the hassle I've had with Yahoo and ebay I'm thinking of only using dealers. So I'm casting about. Pity you don't sell hammered English or Celtic, Chris.

[Peter]

Variety is the spice of life.

Although a trip to the Midland Coin Fair (after birthdays/Xmas) is one of the best Sundays in my opinion.

I've also managed to source a couple of coins from the US and Canada where knowledge is the key and they use Krause.

Not ebay !!!!!!

My experiences with EBAY AND Dealers overall is very good.

[Rob]

My experiences with EBAY AND Dealers overall is very good.

Correct. Most people in this world are honest.

[Geoff T]

In the past I've been less than happy with some of Colin Cooke's grading. I always wondered if he did all the grading himself.

I suspect that he did. Next year we have his business partner Neil Paisley coming to talk to South Manchester Numismatic Society on grading, and he admitted that it wasn't necessarily an area where he had a comprehensive knowledge. He's hoping to lead a session where we all chip in our experience rather than do all the talking.

In my opinion Colin was a very knowledgable and astute grader. He's the only person who's actually suggested that I might have undergraded a coin!

G

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

I've had it happen a few times with me....

The MOST BLATANT being an 1862 shilling, that was at best an EF by US grading standards AND CLEANED!!!!!!! It would probably be factored out as a VF (US)....

It was sold by me for about $65 and within a weeks time, it was listed by a British seller as UNC, using MY PICTURES, and ended up selling for over 175 POUNDS (about $325 at that time......)

I don't know who I was more annoyed at.. the seller for his boldfaced misgrading, or the foolishness (I'm being nice) of the bidders, who took the word of the seller, and not the truthfullness of the images themselves, where the wear was quite evident, although the coin was "bright and shiny".......

P.T. Barnum was right, "there's a fool born every minute; and two to take him"

I still buy (and occasionally sell my duplicates) on ebay, but I try to know who I am buying from, and when I do buy, it is because of something particular that has caught my atttention........

[guyincog]

Here's another one:

1918 KN penny bought as EF on ebay.fr

Reappears on ebay.co.uk as CHOICE UNC

and yet the pictures look very EF (wear on Britannia's arms, head, leg, fingers).

Maybe the pictures are worse than the coin, but given that it was graded as EF originally, it seems unlikely.

[Peter]

Ouch...Who is going to tell Brianscoins.

[Geordie582]

With all the hassle I've had with Yahoo and ebay I'm thinking of only using dealers.

The ebay problem wasn't! Someone hijacked my ebay account and as a result, ebay blocked me. All sorted out now, thank goodness. I only disabled my antivirus for a couple of days because of a program clash, but that's all it took. Be warned!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rob]

Here's another one:

1918 KN penny bought as EF on ebay.fr

Reappears on ebay.co.uk as CHOICE UNC

and yet the pictures look very EF (wear on Britannia's arms, head, leg, fingers).

Maybe the pictures are worse than the coin, but given that it was graded as EF originally, it seems unlikely.

This guy appears on the face of it to know what he's doing - sometimes. The problem is that he comes up with things like this. How can you describe a coin as choice UNC, yet in the following sentence say this could be a proof. If you can identify and describe a choice UNC coin, then you should also know what a proof looks like and should be prepared to say so - not to insinuate and so mislead. The same knowledge should also enable you to differentiate between proof and prooflike etc. I guess that not quite choice is a phrase people will see, absorb and mentally consign the coin to the bin. Or perhaps it's just imitating others, after all, 90% of all coins listed on eBay are high grade or choice.

Can we have a list of good and bad sellers on eBay without legal ramifications? A one off could be just that, but serial offenders need to be pointed out somehow.

[Chris Perkins]

I know the seller of that '33 Rob.

It's difficult to tell the difference between wreath proofs and really blindin' non proofs. But you're right, that seller (his name is Martin) really should know that the '33 he has there is not a proof. I noticed he also implied another wreath was a proof recently, and I won it in fact. Perhaps the price went higher than it should, had he not mentioned proof in the listing. Perhaps he also copied the listing text of the previous coin (which really was rather more prooflike).

I think he's just simply very enthusiastic, and he's pointed out pictures in the past that he has remarked were possibly proofs. I think he just gets a bit carried away with 'proofs'!

Although, of the many wreaths my other friend has, a few of them look stunning. To make absolulely sure he has shown them to 3 reputable big money dealers (and little old me) to get an opinions first, rather than trying to sell them as proofs, or sell them as normal implying that they may be proofs....Surely, anyone who knew about about coins and wasn't sure about the proof status of a coin would check it out first?

[Peter]

Those damn Wreaths are Rare & Expensive....What is your collection like Chris ?

.....Just putting the finishing touches to my "34 " die.

& please does anyone know where I can buy a sandblaster?

[Rob]

I know him too having bought in the past. I just wish people would be accurate. It's not difficult deciding what is a proof or not. The letters, fields and edges all have specific qualities not present in normal currency pieces. They don't have to be perfect to be recognisable as a proof, but in the hand it is usually obvious.

[Chris Perkins]

Usually, but not always. 1887 coins are difficult, as are 1821 crowns and even Geo III shillings when they are properly struck. I have a YH Victoria shilling that is so stunningly prooflike, but shouldn't exist as a proof.

Still, the wreath on ebay certainly isn't a proof.