Had a field day on e bay......

[mrbadexample]

7 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

You're right, it is a bugger to get. I searched all UK 1940's the other day, and then searched e bay Canada, Australia and USA - still no luck.

Finally spotted one this morning - got to be probably the 200th (at least) I've looked at. That gives some indication of just how scarce they are. It's only about GF, but at least I've got one. Was cheap as well. Will do until (and IF) a better one comes along. Was going boggle eyed looking 

1940 single exergue line   

 

Did you try Dave Craddock Mike? He had one on his last list AUNC, £25.

[1949threepence]

41 minutes ago, mrbadexample said:

Did you try Dave Craddock Mike? He had one on his last list AUNC, £25.

Actually Jon, I've got it on order. A few minutes after I bought the specimen above and made the post, I wondered if Dave had one. So on the off chance looked at his last list - and there it was. So I called him and he's sending it Tuesday.   

[mrbadexample]

31 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Actually Jon, I've got it on order. A few minutes after I bought the specimen above and made the post, I wondered if Dave had one. So on the off chance looked at his last list - and there it was. So I called him and he's sending it Tuesday.   

Smashing. Pictures when you get it please.

[Peckris 2]

8 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

You're right, it is a bugger to get. I searched all UK 1940's the other day, and then searched e bay Canada, Australia and USA - still no luck.

Finally spotted one this morning - got to be probably the 200th (at least) I've looked at. That gives some indication of just how scarce they are. It's only about GF, but at least I've got one. Was cheap as well. Will do until (and IF) a better one comes along. Was going boggle eyed looking 

1940 single exergue line   

 

It was the late Colin Cooke who told me how rare they are. In the mid-90s - when Spink didn't list the two varieties and had a general price of £6 for 1940 - he advised me that my Unc example would retail for at least £20...

55 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Actually Jon, I've got it on order. A few minutes after I bought the specimen above and made the post, I wondered if Dave had one. So on the off chance looked at his last list - and there it was. So I called him and he's sending it Tuesday.   

... so £25 for an Unc example is a damn good price!

Edited April 19, 2019 by Peckris 2

[PWA 1967]

10 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

It was the late Colin Cooke who told me how rare they are. In the mid-90s - when Spink didn't list the two varieties and had a general price of £6 for 1940 - he advised me that my Unc example would retail for at least £20...

... so £25 for an Unc example is a damn good price!

Its not UNC Peck......But with good lustre and yes cheap ,it was one of mine so have seen it in hand 🙂

There is one on ebay that has been on a while for £35 and its better than that one.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GB-1940-PENNY-SCARCE/192893122637

 

[1949threepence]

11 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

Its not UNC Peck......But with good lustre and yes cheap ,it was one of mine so have seen it in hand 🙂

There is one on ebay that has been on a while for £35 and its better than that one.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GB-1940-PENNY-SCARCE/192893122637

 

aUNC - 30% lustre.

You did well to spot that other one Pete. I searched e bay repeatedly and missed it.

ETA: It's not marked as one, so I probably went right past it without checking properly. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by 1949threepence

[1949threepence]

21 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

It was the late Colin Cooke who told me how rare they are. In the mid-90s - when Spink didn't list the two varieties and had a general price of £6 for 1940 - he advised me that my Unc example would retail for at least £20...

... so £25 for an Unc example is a damn good price!

He always prices very fairly.  I feel very fortunate to have dropped on a good quality one so relatively soon after starting to search. Never even thought about  the possibility of Dave Craddock having a high grade one until this afternoon.  

[PWA 1967]

7 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

aUNC - 30% lustre.

You did well to spot that other one Pete. I searched e bay repeatedly and missed it.

ETA: It's not marked as one, so I probably went right past it without checking properly. 

I have had a few decent ones off ebay Mike not attributed and that is how i found the one you have just bought.

Edited April 20, 2019 by PWA 1967

[1949threepence]

2 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

I have had a few decent ones off ebay Mike not attributed and that is how i found the one you have just bought.

Indeed, well spotted.

As Chris says though, they are rare. I'd bet that less than 1 in 100 of 1940 pennies on e bay are the single exergue line F226, in any condition.  

 

[Peter]

When google was in the infinite stage I googled 1698 farthing everyday..both got a home back in blighty.

I paid $10 Canadian for my exurge and a bit more (so called XF legend)...but I kept them and filled my collection.....well 1718,1693    a decent both G's over...just got a small trident ....can't be saying.

[1949threepence]

I have heard of non mint darkened specimens of 1944, 1945, and 1946 pennies - can anybody confirm?

Or are they just showing variance in the extent/quality of the mint toning over the time involved? 

Edited April 20, 2019 by 1949threepence

[terrysoldpennies]

6 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

As Chris says though, they are rare. I'd bet that less than 1 in 100 of 1940 pennies

There not that rare Mike , I had a count up of the 1940s pennies put away by my mother back in the 1960s, there are 86 Double  and 12 single  .  that's about  7 to 1 .  that proportion my have changed  due to hoarding of the single type 

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, terrysoldpennies said:

There not that rare Mike , I had a count up of the 1940s pennies put away by my mother back in the 1960s, there are 86 Double  and 12 single  .  that's about  7 to 1 .  that proportion my have changed  due to hoarding of the single type 

Thanks Terry - useful info.

[PWA 1967]

1 hour ago, terrysoldpennies said:

There not that rare Mike , I had a count up of the 1940s pennies put away by my mother back in the 1960s, there are 86 Double  and 12 single  .  that's about  7 to 1 .  that proportion my have changed  due to hoarding of the single type 

Yes i agree Terry maybe a bit less 15 to 1......As a guess 🙂

You can buy them off dealers in UNC -BU for £50 / £70  so either nobody wants them or plenty about and if they were much harder to find people would be selling them for more maybe.

[Peckris 2]

6 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

I have heard of non mint darkened specimens of 1944, 1945, and 1946 pennies - can anybody confirm?

Or are they just showing variance in the extent/quality of the mint toning over the time involved? 

Yes, I've certainly heard of 1944 undarkened, but they're very scarce.

1946 come in both flavours, but the mint darkened type I would say is more common.

Here's an interesting one - a 1940 penny that appears to have been darkened, which is unheard of in my experience.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1940-George-VI-Penny-Bronze-Coins-KM-Coins/173869777932?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D57477%26meid%3Db06794f45fd54bc19020d9507f8e7f09%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D192893122637%26itm%3D173869777932&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

I've just taken a punt on it (made an offer which was accepted) - I'll see in hand if it actually is Mint toned. If not, I'll have a standard 1940 penny to sell. 

Edited April 20, 2019 by Peckris 2

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, PWA 1967 said:

Yes i agree Terry maybe a bit less 15 to 1......As a guess 🙂

You can buy them off dealers in UNC -BU for £50 / £70  so either nobody wants them or plenty about and if they were much harder to find people would be selling them for more maybe.

I can only find one on the LCA site, and that went with a double exergue 1940, both UNC, for £120 hammer, in June 2016 - link to    

[1949threepence]

41 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Yes, I've certainly heard of 1944 undarkened, but they're very scarce.

1946 come in both flavours, but the mint darkened type I would say is more common.

Here's an interesting one - a 1940 penny that appears to have been darkened, which is unheard of in my experience.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1940-George-VI-Penny-Bronze-Coins-KM-Coins/173869777932?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D57477%26meid%3Db06794f45fd54bc19020d9507f8e7f09%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D192893122637%26itm%3D173869777932&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

I've just taken a punt on it (made an offer which was accepted) - I'll see in hand if it actually is Mint toned. If not, I'll have a standard 1940 penny to sell. 

Interestingly, under the heading George VI (1936 - 52), in relation to mint darkened coins, Freeman says this:-

"Some pennies of other years also appear to have been treated with 'hypo' unofficially"   

ETA: With regard to 1944 undarkened, I found this - no idea how experienced or knowledgeable the guy is, but he sounds as though he knows his onions.

Quote

 

Why are the Pennies of 1944, 1945 and 1946 so ugly?

The pennies of these years had their bronze alloy’s tin content changed from 3% to 0.5%. This caused premature and unattractive corrosion/toning. The coins were thus intentionally darkened, so in most cases a true uncirculated specimen would be a shiny brown. In that state it is actually quite attractive. Refer to Figure 1 for a nice example of a mint state 1946 penny. Figure 2 shows a standard red penny from 1948.

A side effect of this toning was that the 1944-46 pennies were not hoarded because they looked used. In many cases, a coin graded EF is actually UNC – one of the very, very few instances of consistent undergrading I’ve seen. Also watch for 1944 pennies that were not toned. These command a 100% or more premium over their toned counterparts.

Pennies of 1934 were also darkened at the mint. Be on the lookout for these in their brown UNC state. They are grossly undervalued in the catalogues. Some pennies of 1935 were also mint darkened, so there are actually two “varieties” of that date.

 

 Of course, the last paragraph takes me back to my thread on mint darkened 1935 pennies (or the possibility thereof).   

Edited April 20, 2019 by 1949threepence

[PWA 1967]

Interesting story on those Mike.

I know the dealer who bought them ,also the underbidder ........What they did with them and how much they sold for.

I wont put it on a public forum though but not a good comparable 😂

You will see ones that have sold for £100 etc and think maybe its people who dont have the patience to look or who think they may be scarcer than they really are.

[Peter]

I just love the search.....bought a few bad uns.....bit like women although I don't pay....sort of keeps me balanced....whooops.

[1949threepence]

On 4/19/2019 at 11:19 PM, PWA 1967 said:

Its not UNC Peck......But with good lustre and yes cheap ,it was one of mine so have seen it in hand 🙂

There is one on ebay that has been on a while for £35 and its better than that one.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GB-1940-PENNY-SCARCE/192893122637

 

Pete - I had an e mail from Dave Craddock saying that it wasn't a single exergue line penny, and that there may have been some mix up. Never mind - one of those things.

At least I do now have one, albeit only GF. But no other issues, so it will do very nicely.

[PWA 1967]

57 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

Pete - I had an e mail from Dave Craddock saying that it wasn't a single exergue line penny, and that there may have been some mix up. Never mind - one of those things.

At least I do now have one, albeit only GF. But no other issues, so it will do very nicely.

I think its more likely he has sold the one i sent him as was one 100%

I will also keep a look out for you to find a better one.

When i sent you a PM the other day the other dealer i mentioned is definately worth a try 🙂

 

Edited April 24, 2019 by PWA 1967

[Peckris 2]

On 20 April 2019 at 6:14 PM, Peckris 2 said:

Yes, I've certainly heard of 1944 undarkened, but they're very scarce.

1946 come in both flavours, but the mint darkened type I would say is more common.

Here's an interesting one - a 1940 penny that appears to have been darkened, which is unheard of in my experience.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1940-George-VI-Penny-Bronze-Coins-KM-Coins/173869777932?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D57477%26meid%3Db06794f45fd54bc19020d9507f8e7f09%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D192893122637%26itm%3D173869777932&_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851

I've just taken a punt on it (made an offer which was accepted) - I'll see in hand if it actually is Mint toned. If not, I'll have a standard 1940 penny to sell. 

It arrived today, and I'm 98% sure it is Mint toned. Has all the characteristics and it would also make sense that they'd test the procedure out before they introduced it full time the next year they minted. I've also 'swiped' the eBay pictures for my own records.

[1949threepence]

14 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

It arrived today, and I'm 98% sure it is Mint toned. Has all the characteristics and it would also make sense that they'd test the procedure out before they introduced it full time the next year they minted. I've also 'swiped' the eBay pictures for my own records.

Brilliant. Very neat capture Chris. 

[Peckris 2]

Does anyone know why wartime pennies were toned by the Mint? Farthings from 1897 to 1918 were toned to avoid being passed off as half sovs but that doesn't apply to GVI pennies.

[terrysoldpennies]

13 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

Does anyone know why wartime pennies were toned by the Mint? Farthings from 1897 to 1918 were toned to avoid being passed off as half sovs but that doesn't apply to GVI pennies.

Because of a change in the metal content mixtures due to the War .  Page 63 The Bronze Coinage of Great Britain .  Freeman