Toning while slabbed

[craigy]

not sure if anyone has noticed the haze that some of the latest proofs from the rm are prone to getting, seems to be the 2014 to 2017 coins from my own observations,  but what happens when you get a coin slabbed then it develops a nasty tone or spots, does that mean the coin is still the grade assigned to it or not,    or are the slabs air tight ?

Edited March 10, 2019 by craigy

[Diaconis]

6 minutes ago, craigy said:

not sure if anyone has noticed the haze that some of the latest proofs from the rm are prone to getting, seems to be the 2014 to 2017 coins from my own observations,  but what happens when you get a coin slabbed then it develops a nasty tone or spots, does that mean the coin is still the grade assigned to it or not,    or are the slabs air tight ?

If a rumour started circulating that the plastic adhesives used in slabs had the potential to contaminate its contents we might see the numismatic equivalent of the 1857 Indian rebellion. Shhhh🤫

[craigy]

5 minutes ago, Diaconis said:

1857 Indian rebellion

had to look that up, i'm sure might be a thread on this subject already 

[PWA 1967]

I think its NGC who only garauntee the grade for ten years ,i am not sure the toning is caused so quickly by the plastic but more how it is stored.

Again you buy the coin and not the grade as has been mentioned numerous times on here 😊

Edited March 10, 2019 by PWA 1967

[craigy]

1 minute ago, PWA 1967 said:

I think its NGC who only garauntee the grade for ten years ,i am not sure the toning is caused so quickly by the plastic but more how it is stored.

I thoi9ght they were sonically sealed, 

[Coinery]

I think you’ll be fine. This is the best feature of slabbing, that the coins are carefully decontaminated on arrival at the TPGC to remove all detrimental pollutants, before sealing them up in a perfect vacuum, preserving them in a fixed state for all time.

[PWA 1967]

3 minutes ago, craigy said:

I thoi9ght they were sonically sealed, 

Yes which will help .However if you want to leave your slab somewhere daft it would be your own fault.

[craigy]

1 minute ago, PWA 1967 said:

Yes which will help .However if you want to leave your slab somewhere daft it would be your own fault.

where would you call daft lol ? 

[Sword]

 

4 minutes ago, Coinery said:

I think you’ll be fine. This is the best feature of slabbing, that the coins are carefully decontaminated on arrival at the TPGC to remove all detrimental pollutants, before sealing them up in a perfect vacuum, preserving them in a fixed state for all time.

Such wonderful sarcasm. :-)

 

 

[craigy]

2 minutes ago, Sword said:

 

Such wonderful sarcasm. 🙂

 

 

oh was he being sarcastic ?     

[Sword]

Yes!

[Sword]

1 hour ago, craigy said:

not sure if anyone has noticed the haze that some of the latest proofs from the rm are prone to getting, seems to be the 2014 to 2017 coins from my own observations,  but what happens when you get a coin slabbed then it develops a nasty tone or spots, does that mean the coin is still the grade assigned to it or not,    or are the slabs air tight ?

It is your loss if your slabbed coin has deteriorated inside its holder. 

With regard to the question "Does that mean the coin is still the grade assigned to it or not?" Not to someone sensible and you won't expect to get the same grade if you get it regraded. (Then again this can happen even if there is no  change to the coin)

One must assume that the slabs are not air tight. 

From PCGS website: "Coins exhibiting environmental deterioration. The PCGS Guarantee does not apply to coins exhibiting environmental deterioration subsequent to PCGS grading and encapsulation. This deterioration may include, but is not limited to, spotting, hazing, PVC contamination, changes in color, and corrosion.

IMPORTANT: Because the color and surfaces of copper coins can change due to environmental factors, including weather and improper storage, PCGS does not guarantee against changes in the color of copper coins, or against copper spotting subsequent to grading and encapsulation by PCGS."

If holders are airtight, then you don't need to worry about humidity of the surrounding air. 

Edited March 10, 2019 by Sword

[Sword]

I once made the mistake of buying a 1937 proof crown based on the CGS photos as the auction house photo was very poor. There was a carbon spot next to the nose of the king which was not present when the CGS photo was taken. It wasn't an expensive coin of course and so not much damage done. 

But to be fair to TPGs, I still think the chances of a coin deteriorating inside a slab is somewhat less than a coin outside a slab, at least for the less advanced collectors (i.e. those of us not bothering with humidity (thanks Stuart) control etc). 

Edited March 10, 2019 by Sword

[Coinery]

11 minutes ago, craigy said:

oh was he being sarcastic ?     

More effort is made in packaging meat for supermarkets, Craigy! Sword’s disclaimer taken from a TPGC’s Ts & Cs speaks volumes for me.

[Coinery]

4 minutes ago, Sword said:

But to be fair to TPGs, I still think the chances of a coin deteriorating inside a slab is somewhat less than a coin outside a slab, at least for the less advanced collectors (i.e. those of us not bothering with [humidity] control etc). 

Agreed, I’ve sold raw coins to enthusiastic collectors that I wouldn’t want back for half the price I sold them for. A common feature of being new to the hobby that grates.

[Diaconis]

8 minutes ago, Sword said:

I once made the mistake of buying a 1937 proof crown based on the CGS photos as the auction house photo was very poor. There was a carbon spot next to the nose of the king which was not present when the CGS photo was taken. It wasn't an expensive coin of course and so not much damage done. 

But to be fair to TPGs, I still think the chances of a coin deteriorating inside a slab is somewhat less than a coin outside a slab, at least for the less advanced collectors (i.e. those of us not bothering with humility control etc). 

 

Numistacker is CERTAINLY not bothering with humility control 😉

[Sword]

7 minutes ago, Coinery said:

More effort is made in packaging meat for supermarkets, Craigy! 

This is literally true as meat is sometimes packed in an atmosphere of argon (or the less effective nitrogen). Yet, TPGs are not doing that yet as far as I am aware.

[1949threepence]

32 minutes ago, Sword said:

It is your loss if your slabbed coin has deteriorated inside its holder. 

With regard to the question "Does that mean the coin is still the grade assigned to it or not?" Not to someone sensible and you won't expect to get the same grade if you get it regraded. (Then again this can happen even if there is no  change to the coin)

One must assume that the slabs are not air tight. 

From PCGS website: "Coins exhibiting environmental deterioration. The PCGS Guarantee does not apply to coins exhibiting environmental deterioration subsequent to PCGS grading and encapsulation. This deterioration may include, but is not limited to, spotting, hazing, PVC contamination, changes in color, and corrosion.

IMPORTANT: Because the color and surfaces of copper coins can change due to environmental factors, including weather and improper storage, PCGS does not guarantee against changes in the color of copper coins, or against copper spotting subsequent to grading and encapsulation by PCGS."

If holders are airtight, then you don't need to worry about humidity of the surrounding air. 

Are they saying, though, that such deteriorations as do appear post slabbing, are due to changes that were initiated prior to slabbing? For example, it can take months for a carbon spot to appear, after a tiny drop of saliva lands on a coin surface.

  

[Sword]

1 minute ago, 1949threepence said:

Are they saying, though, that such deteriorations as do appear post slabbing, are due to changes that were initiated prior to slabbing? For example, it can take months for a carbon spot to appear, after a tiny drop of saliva lands on a coin surface.

  

I think they are saying that they do not take any responsibility for any problem which become apparent after a coin has been slabbed. 

They are saying that a slabbed coin might change due to the environment which it is stored without admitting the obvious that there might be potentially harmful chemicals on the surface prior to slabbing. 

[1949threepence]

2 minutes ago, Sword said:

I think they are saying that they do not take any responsibility for any problem which become apparent after a coin has been slabbed. 

They are saying that a slabbed coin might change due to the environment which it is stored without admitting the obvious that there might be potentially harmful chemicals on the surface prior to slabbing. 

Yes, they've got to say that as it could always be alleged (but never proved) that pre slabbing surface contamination was down to them, whilst the coin was in their offices.

[youliveyoulean]

"Are they saying, though, that such deteriorations as do appear post slabbing, are due to changes that were initiated prior to slabbing? For example, it can take months for a carbon spot to appear, after a tiny drop of saliva lands on a coin surface."

The American TPGs have gone to great lengths to absolve themselves of any responsibility for any changes which occur to your coins. They are covered from every angle. I believe the hefty premiums paid for PR70 over PR69 in many cases by collectors are a ticking timebomb as the coins evolve.

For PCGS, I recall reading somewhere that in the unlikely event that any collector tries to bring a case against them, it is my understanding that the case may only be tried and heard in a Californian court - where PCGS is based. Can anyone confirm?

 

[PWA 1967]

8 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

I think its NGC who only garauntee the grade for ten years ,i am not sure the toning is caused so quickly by the plastic but more how it is stored.

Again you buy the coin and not the grade as has been mentioned numerous times on here 😊

Garauntee........😵

I am really thick............

[1949threepence]

18 hours ago, youliveyoulean said:

"Are they saying, though, that such deteriorations as do appear post slabbing, are due to changes that were initiated prior to slabbing? For example, it can take months for a carbon spot to appear, after a tiny drop of saliva lands on a coin surface."

The American TPGs have gone to great lengths to absolve themselves of any responsibility for any changes which occur to your coins. They are covered from every angle. I believe the hefty premiums paid for PR70 over PR69 in many cases by collectors are a ticking timebomb as the coins evolve.

For PCGS, I recall reading somewhere that in the unlikely event that any collector tries to bring a case against them, it is my understanding that the case may only be tried and heard in a Californian court - where PCGS is based. Can anyone confirm?

 

Yes, well short of a fingerprint belonging to one of their staff appearing on a coin, it would be pretty much impossible to prove a case against them.  

[Sword]

20 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

I think its NGC who only garauntee the grade for ten years ,i am not sure the toning is caused so quickly by the plastic but more how it is stored.

Again you buy the coin and not the grade as has been mentioned numerous times on here 😊

From NGC's website:

"Deterioration of Certain Coins. The NGC Guarantee does not apply to certain Coins where the appearance of the Coin changes or deteriorates over time and such change or deterioration is responsible for any discrepancy between the assigned grade and the Coin’s actual grade. NGC shall make the sole reasonable determination as to whether this deterioration has occurred. The following specific parameters apply:
In certain Coins, natural environmental deterioration may cause undesired features to appear, such as (but not limited to) spotting, hazing, PVC and corrosion. Spots, for example, can occur on modern silver Coins as a result of the minting process or other natural conditions over which NGC has no control. Therefore, the NGC Guarantee does not apply to Coins exhibiting any of these issues.
Coins made of copper, bronze and brass or are copper-plated can change over time. Accordingly, with regard to copper, bronze, brass or copper-plated Coins graded by NGC, the grade portion of the NGC Guarantee will no longer apply after the 10-year anniversary of their date of encapsulation by NGC. The expiration date of the grade portion of the NGC Guarantee can be found by entering the Coin’s certification number in the Verify NGC Certification section of the NGC website or by contacting NGC Customer Service."

Hence NGC is saying that they are not responsible for problems such as spots, hazing etc appearing after encapsulation. And for copper, bronze or brass coins, the grades expire after 10 years anyway. 😟

[Coinery]

@Sword Shocking!