Some theoretical auction advice needed

[1949threepence]

The following is some information on bidding increments from dnw's website:-

Quote

 

 Bid Increments

Our bid increments are as follows:

£0 to £100 - £5 increments
£100 to £200 - £10 increments
£200 to £500 - £20 increments
£500 to £1,000 - £50 increments
£1,000 to £2,000 - £100 increments
£2,000 to £5,000 - £200 increments
£5,000 to £10,000 - £500 increments
£10,000 to £20,000 - £1,000 increments
£20,000 to £50,000 - £2,000 increments
£50,000 to £100,000 - £5,000 increments
£100,000 to £500,000 - £10,000 increments
£500,000 onwards - £20,000 increments

Bids of unusual amounts will be rounded down to the bid step below and will not take precedence over a similar bid.

 

Would I be correct in assuming that if a given coin had estimates of say £300 - £400, but I bid (for example) £2000, prior to auction, then on the day there were no other bids, I would get the coin for the first increment down from £2k - ie: £1900?

Thanks in advance.   

[mrbadexample]

Wouldn't you get it for whatever the auctioneer started at Mike - somewhere near the estimate? You'd only pay £1900 if someone else had bid £1800.

Or have I missed your point?

If it was LCA you'd get it for £2000. 

[Paddy]

5 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

The following is some information on bidding increments from dnw's website:-

Would I be correct in assuming that if a given coin had estimates of say £300 - £400, but I bid (for example) £2000, prior to auction, then on the day there were no other bids, I would get the coin for the first increment down from £2k - ie: £1900?

Thanks in advance.   

If there were no other bids you should get it at the start price or reserve price! No matter how high the commission bids auctioneers are legally obliged to sell at the lowest possible amount. With an estimate of £300 to £400 it would imply that the reserve is around £300 or less (they are not allowed to have a reserve more than 10% over the lower estimate I believe), so with no other bidding you should get it for around £300. The only way you should be paying £1900 is if another bidder has put in a bid of £1800. (Or, to be pedantic, one of £1900 but lodged after yours.)

[1949threepence]

5 minutes ago, Paddy said:

If there were no other bids you should get it at the start price or reserve price! No matter how high the commission bids auctioneers are legally obliged to sell at the lowest possible amount. With an estimate of £300 to £400 it would imply that the reserve is around £300 or less (they are not allowed to have a reserve more than 10% over the lower estimate I believe), so with no other bidding you should get it for around £300. The only way you should be paying £1900 is if another bidder has put in a bid of £1800. (Or, to be pedantic, one of £1900 but lodged after yours.)

Right, thanks Paddy. I did wonder that, but honestly wasn't sure simply by virtue of the fact that if an exceptionally high bid was made pre auction, then the auctioneer on the day will obviously say something like "£2000 I'm bid", which could unfairly put off other potential bidders who might otherwise have gone for intermediate amounts.   

[1949threepence]

11 minutes ago, mrbadexample said:

Wouldn't you get it for whatever the auctioneer started at Mike - somewhere near the estimate? You'd only pay £1900 if someone else had bid £1800.

Or have I missed your point?

If it was LCA you'd get it for £2000. 

Sorry Jon, didn't see your post initially. No you got my point. It was just I'm honestly unsure. 

[mrbadexample]

If you get chance Mike, it's worth listening to the live auction.

The auctioneer would refer to your £2000 bid as "with me" until the bidding exceeded your amount, then it would be "in the room" or "on the internet" etc.

[Paddy]

5 minutes ago, mrbadexample said:

If you get chance Mike, it's worth listening to the live auction.

The auctioneer would refer to your £2000 bid as "with me" until the bidding exceeded your amount, then it would be "in the room" or "on the internet" etc.

Yes - but if your bid is the only commission bid he has it should start with something like "I have £300 with me..." and then each time another bid comes in, online or in the room, he can take the next increment "with me" until your bid is passed. At any point that the others give up, that is the price you should get it for.

If he has two or more advance bids, then he starts at the first bid that clears the others.

If he starts at £2000 when yours is the only bid he has then he is breaking the law and risks losing his auctioneer's licence or worse. If he starts at £300, has no bidders online or in the room and starts taking non existing bids to try to bump the price up to your bid, he is also breaking the law - this is referred to as "taking bids off the wall". Some auction houses have bad reputations for either of these illegal practices and regular bidders avoid leaving bids with them.

[Peckris 2]

11 minutes ago, mrbadexample said:

If you get chance Mike, it's worth listening to the live auction.

The auctioneer would refer to your £2000 bid as "with me" until the bidding exceeded your amount, then it would be "in the room" or "on the internet" etc.

Yes, that's right. The auctioneer would open - if he had a bid on the books - at the reserve or estimate. Then if there were bids in the room, the auctioneer would raise (often by pointing at his book) with the next highest bid. If the room cleared what was on the book he would say something like "I'm out" and point to the overbidder.

[mrbadexample]

3 minutes ago, Paddy said:

Yes - but if your bid is the only commission bid he has it should start with something like "I have £300 with me..." and then each time another bid comes in, online or in the room, he can take the next increment "with me" until your bid is passed. At any point that the others give up, that is the price you should get it for.

If he has two or more advance bids, then he starts at the first bid that clears the others.

If he starts at £2000 when yours is the only bid he has then he is breaking the law and risks losing his auctioneer's licence or worse. If he starts at £300, has no bidders online or in the room and starts taking non existing bids to try to bump the price up to your bid, he is also breaking the law - this is referred to as "taking bids off the wall". Some auction houses have bad reputations for either of these illegal practices and regular bidders avoid leaving bids with them.

What I was trying to say but explained much better. 

[1949threepence]

9 minutes ago, Paddy said:

Yes - but if your bid is the only commission bid he has it should start with something like "I have £300 with me..." and then each time another bid comes in, online or in the room, he can take the next increment "with me" until your bid is passed. At any point that the others give up, that is the price you should get it for.

If he has two or more advance bids, then he starts at the first bid that clears the others.

If he starts at £2000 when yours is the only bid he has then he is breaking the law and risks losing his auctioneer's licence or worse. If he starts at £300, has no bidders online or in the room and starts taking non existing bids to try to bump the price up to your bid, he is also breaking the law - this is referred to as "taking bids off the wall". Some auction houses have bad reputations for either of these illegal practices and regular bidders avoid leaving bids with them.

But if that's the case, then if the last live internet or room bidder bids £1500, then it will come to "fair warning" at what? Won't the £1500 bidder think they are the winner? 

[mrbadexample]

7 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

But if that's the case, then if the last live internet or room bidder bids £1500, then it will come to "fair warning" at what? 

£1600 to you.

[secret santa]

I've been to many London Coins auctions where Stephen Locket starts a lot by announcing "£x is bid" - but then no further bids are received from floor or phone and so he brings the hammer down and one can assume that it went for £x - but no, when the results are printed, we find that it went unsold even tho' he didn't use those words at the time. So it's debatable as to whether he had a genuine bid for £x or whether he was just trying to get the bidding started. I'd prefer to hear him say something like "I'm looking for £x on this one" , where £x is hopefully the reserve.

I also have to say that LCA did have a reputation (possibly unfounded) of selling lots at the highest bid that a vendor submitted but I can also say that I've won lots for considerably less than my maximum bid.

"You makes your bid and you takes your chance."

[secret santa]

10 minutes ago, mrbadexample said:

£1600 to you.

Not true - if you have left a postal/commission bid, then the auctioneer will announce it just like a room or telephone bid, so if the last room bid was £1500, he'll say something like "I've got £1600 on commission - Fair warning" and if there are no other bids, you'll get it at £1600.

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, mrbadexample said:

If you get chance Mike, it's worth listening to the live auction.

The auctioneer would refer to your £2000 bid as "with me" until the bidding exceeded your amount, then it would be "in the room" or "on the internet" etc.

Always do, Jon. The live auctions are great to listen to.

[VickySilver]

As Richard has said, the experiences in the past with LCA are that they tend to go with your maximum bid as the sale price even if it seems unopposed. More recently the experience has been variable. I have to say that in America the old Stack's used to go with maximum bid too - not sure if the more recent reiteration of Stacks Bowers is the same.

[secret santa]

1 hour ago, secret santa said:

1 hour ago, mrbadexample said:

£1600 to you.

Not true - if you have left a postal/commission bid, then the auctioneer will announce it just like a room or telephone bid, so if the last room bid was £1500, he'll say something like "I've got £1600 on commission - Fair warning" and if there are no other bids, you'll get it at £1600.

Which is exactly what you said - stupid me 😡

[Paddy]

An interesting thought arises from this discussion:

There are effectively two ways of leaving a commission these days at most auctions - by contacting the auction house and leaving a bid in the traditional way, or by using an "autobid" through an online bidding engine such as Saleroom.com or Easyliveauctions. I would suggest you are safer with the latter as the auction house has no knowledge of your maximum bid or how many other bidders have left bids - the system just bids on each and everyone's behalf up to their maximum. The opportunity for a crooked auctioneer to start at a single bidder's top price is removed completely, and they run a risk if they take bids off the wall of finding they have over-run the limit and are left with the lot and no bidder.

LCA do not have an autobid facility through their website, which will always leave them open to accusations of sharp practice. One wonders why?

 

[1949threepence]

16 minutes ago, Paddy said:

An interesting thought arises from this discussion:

There are effectively two ways of leaving a commission these days at most auctions - by contacting the auction house and leaving a bid in the traditional way, or by using an "autobid" through an online bidding engine such as Saleroom.com or Easyliveauctions. I would suggest you are safer with the latter as the auction house has no knowledge of your maximum bid or how many other bidders have left bids - the system just bids on each and everyone's behalf up to their maximum. The opportunity for a crooked auctioneer to start at a single bidder's top price is removed completely, and they run a risk if they take bids off the wall of finding they have over-run the limit and are left with the lot and no bidder.

LCA do not have an autobid facility through their website, which will always leave them open to accusations of sharp practice. One wonders why?

 

You'd think they would do by now. Not to mention live auctions on the internet. 

[1949threepence]

Thanks for all the helpful advice gents. Much appreciated.