1797 Penny

[Madness]

My next acquisition target is a 1797 penny of EF grade or higher.  I want a genuine 1797 coin, not a late Soho striking or a Taylor restrike.  How do I tell the difference between the original and a later strike/restrike?

Finally, I came across this image of an example graded as FDC.  Is this precisely the same design as used in the genuine 1797 strikings?  Thanks!

Source

 

Edited August 6, 2018 by Madness

[Madness]

Think I've found a good source that might be able to answer my questions in the form of Peck: English Copper, Tin and Bronze Coins in the British Museum, 1558-1963.  Could someone please confirm that this work will be useful and that the 1970 edition is acceptable?  Have found a copy in Australia on eBay.

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

Peck is generally considered to be the definitive work on the subject and I believe the 1970 edition is the second printing and most recent edition.

A must have reference for your library....

One caveat to remember; there have been many new discoveries since that last printing, so you will have to supplement it with other resources.... However it is the starting point from which all others embark...

[1949threepence]

1 hour ago, Madness said:

Think I've found a good source that might be able to answer my questions in the form of Peck: English Copper, Tin and Bronze Coins in the British Museum, 1558-1963.  Could someone please confirm that this work will be useful and that the 1970 edition is acceptable?  Have found a copy in Australia on eBay.

It's a great book, and very useful - although as stated above, many new discoveries have been made since the last update, so you have to factor that in. But with that said, it's just about the most comprehensive work on offer, I'd say. A very big heavy book, as might be imagined.

Of course the photographic plates are not of the standard we would expect today, but the written text is superb.

My advice for what it's worth - buy it !!! Don't know what the cost is on e bay Australia, but generally they're not cheap. I got mine for £50 at an auction in 2016 (1964 print)     

[Peckris 2]

I may be talking through my arse here (it's been known...) but AFAIK there aren't Taylor restrikes of the currency 1797 coins? And yes, your pictures above are of the genuine striking - though that may be a proof if described as FDC (there are Taylor restrikes of proofs but that doesn't look like one).

[Madness]

33 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

I may be talking through my arse here (it's been known...) but AFAIK there aren't Taylor restrikes of the currency 1797 coins? And yes, your pictures above are of the genuine striking - though that may be a proof if described as FDC (there are Taylor restrikes of proofs but that doesn't look like one).

I remember having read recently that Taylor got hold of dies for both proof and circulation examples and that his marriages of the dies were all over the place.  Then again, I only have a few weeks experience and you have a lifetime!  I can't even remember where I read this!  Will try and track it down.  Could have been the words of some rando in a non-descript forum.  

[PWA 1967]

The picture you posted above is of a proof coin and yes the currency is the same although you wont find a currency with so good a strike and fields.

The Taylor ones you can spot quite easily as a completely different design to the reverse and yes there are patterns for 1797.

Plenty to choose from and maybe take your time 😊

Edited August 6, 2018 by PWA 1967

[Madness]

I must have been dreaming.  I can't find the reference.  

Looking at a few examples today I've noticed a difference in the shape of GIII's forehead, some curving slightly inwards at the top and others being relatively straight at the same place.  

Edited August 6, 2018 by Madness

[PWA 1967]

1 minute ago, Madness said:

I must have been dreaming.  I can't find the reference.  

What for 😄

[Madness]

2 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

What for 😄

Read the post above your first post re die-marriages and proof/circulation dies.  I obviously don't know what I'm talking about 😄

Edited August 6, 2018 by Madness

[oldcopper]

I would call it as a Soho proof due to the small curved line coming down from the King's ear. This is indicative of one of the KP types but as I haven't got Peck to hand I can't specify which (it may be the one with P1123 in it).

[oldcopper]

Yes, I've just looked at the London Coins source picture and it is KP17, P1123.

[PWA 1967]

20 minutes ago, oldcopper said:

I would call it as a Soho proof due to the small curved line coming down from the King's ear. This is indicative of one of the KP types but as I haven't got Peck to hand I can't specify which (it may be the one with P1123 in it).

I wasnt aware of that ,is there any other differences please ?.

[oldcopper]

That's the difference I always spot, as it's really easy. I don't think it's mentioned in Peck though. Peck will list other differences but probably harder to see straightaway.