PWA 1967 Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 (edited) Sorry if this has been mentioned on earlier posts ,i am not interested enough to read this and other threads 😃. I remember talking about the 1953 VIP coins to someone a while ago and jogged my memory as we had a similar discussion over the weekend. All the denominations for the 1953 VIP coins have different indicators to the standard 1953 proofs and vary on each coin from teeth , letter pointings , designers initials ,size of the head / bust etc The person telling me has had 2 sets ( one with a couple missing ) and tells me you can tell from the indicators at a glance . I didnt have a clue and just thought it was the penny that was easier to spot . Pete. Edited June 1, 2020 by PWA 1967 Quote
VickySilver Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 Hmmm, I kind of doubt your acquaintance's story. The RM is not aware, even if they are not the end-all. I rather fancy myself to have some knowledge of 20th C proof coins and am not aware of any such "markers". Quote
PWA 1967 Posted June 1, 2020 Posted June 1, 2020 1 hour ago, VickySilver said: Hmmm, I kind of doubt your acquaintance's story. The RM is not aware, even if they are not the end-all. I rather fancy myself to have some knowledge of 20th C proof coins and am not aware of any such "markers". Yes ,they all have different indicators Eric ,although aparently the hardest one to spot is the Brass threepence as they are almost identical. Quote
VickySilver Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 (edited) Other than the penny, please elucidate and especially with regards to the crown. My concern is that these markers are not widely recognized and certainly I would not want to see any of these markers on non-"VIP" specimens; so to postulate such it would not be enough to see a marker on a purported "VIP" specimen and not on another non-such, as there will be natural die variability & there would have to be an extended study that demonstrated applicability over numerous specimens. The reason that I threw a bit of shade is that with regards to crowns at least, is if the Royal Mint does not recognize differences and from my numerous conversations with Steve Hill amongst others that there are not clear differences. So that there is a spectrum or continuity in what is a proof. BTW, for a fact Bull is wrong with regards to his artificial designations of proof and his "VIP proof" coins of non-standard years. The use of "VIP" has many issues and I do not necessarily agree on its usage on technical terms. BTW, please see my original response to the OP.... Edited June 2, 2020 by VickySilver Quote
PWA 1967 Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 You know a lot more than me Eric and dont profess to have any interest in them or had looked at any before they were pointed out to me.You mention the dies ,is there not a possibility that different dies were used or mixed OBV 1 & REV 2 from the standard proof , just a thought and maybe i am completely wrong. Why did they strike a different penny with indicators that everyone is aware of and not produce any of the others differently ? The person has been looking at coins for quite a while and has looked at probably at lot more than most.If he can tell me loads of indicators off the top of his head and just rhyme them all off i believe he has quite a stong opinion or view and they may speak for themselves when you compare one with a standard proof. Also he has looked at hundreds of 1953 proof sets and found two ,it makes me think the two he bought and sold were correct. Otherwise he may well of been selling them everyweek and would not be able to spot one straight away. With regards the other people you mention yes they will all have an opinion although maybe sometimes if you dont know what your looking for its going to be harder to find or confirm. All good fun and them being so rare i suppose will mean we wont find any or maybe there is know such thing 😃 1 Quote
JLS Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 With the 1953 farthings various die combinations have been ascribed as VIP proofs...I've seen 2+B coins (same as regular sets), as well as 2+A coins (very rare), and 1 +A coins (excessively rare). Presumably the latter are truly VIP proofs, the 2+A pieces are just an error, and the 2+B coins are most likely just nice examples of the ordinary strike (cf. the example in the London Coins archive ex-Norweb which despite some fingerprints looks better than most of the supposed "VIP" pieces in my opinion). Quote
secret santa Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 4 hours ago, PWA 1967 said: Why did they strike a different penny with indicators that everyone is aware of and not produce any of the others differently ? The sets were probably struck very early on in the process when they were still using a variation of the George VI toothed reverse in preparation for the 1953 penny. When I sent my 1953 pattern mule to the Royal Mint for comment, they replied that it had been probably struck in October 1952. Another example is held within the Royal Collection Trust, noting that it was struck as a Trial on 17th Sept 1952. Quote
Peckris 2 Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 3 hours ago, secret santa said: The sets were probably struck very early on in the process when they were still using a variation of the George VI toothed reverse in preparation for the 1953 penny. When I sent my 1953 pattern mule to the Royal Mint for comment, they replied that it had been probably struck in October 1952. Another example is held within the Royal Collection Trust, noting that it was struck as a Trial on 17th Sept 1952. I'd agree. The 1953 reverse is more or less identical to the George VI reverse. I don't know exactly when the 'plastic sets' and proof sets were struck, but obviously not until they'd changed the reverse to be the beaded type that became standard. Probably not until the (pennyless) currency was well under way as that would have had priority. Quote
secret santa Posted June 2, 2020 Posted June 2, 2020 6 hours ago, JLS said: With the 1953 farthings various die combinations have been ascribed as VIP proofs...I've seen 2+B coins (same as regular sets), as well as 2+A coins (very rare), and 1 +A coins (excessively rare). I have a set of matt proof 1953 penny, halfpenny and farthing and the farthing is a 1+A. Quote
VickySilver Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 Richard, can you post a picture of your matte farthing for a comparo? Quote
JLS Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 17 minutes ago, secret santa said: Interesting ! Were these produced for photography purposes ? The obverse strike looks very soft from the images above. Quote
secret santa Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 I believe they were struck from sand-blasted dies for photographic purposes but that's only hearsay. The photos were taken through a slab but, as Freeman states, "the obverse is in extremely low relief". Quote
JLS Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 3 minutes ago, secret santa said: I believe they were struck from sand-blasted dies for photographic purposes but that's only hearsay. The photos were taken through a slab but, as Freeman states, "the obverse is in extremely low relief". Interesting. I don't own any similar British pieces but I have a French matt pattern, presumably for photographic purposes, from the turn of the last century and the quality of the strike is superlative. Quote
VickySilver Posted June 3, 2020 Posted June 3, 2020 I will check mine later today for comparison Richard, just to see if it is the same. Many thanks! Quote
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