Thought on where the Plantagenets begin?

[Coinery]

As per the title, what are your thoughts? Henry II or not?

[Rob]

Yes. What alternative did you have in mind?

[Ukstu]

Henry II. 

[Coinery]

It just seems that some historians want to leave out the Angevins from the start of the Plantagenet dynasty, saying the true English kings of the period begin at Henry III? Equally, there seems to be as much confusion (at least for me) about whether the Plantagenets finish with Richard II or continue until the end of the York and Lancastrians?

[Rob]

It seems fairly uncontentious to have the Plantagenets running in parallel with the Lancastrians. In the case of Henry II, I suppose this could be resolved if we know what he called himself. If he called himself Henry Plantagenet, then all the historians in the world can't change that.

[Peckris]

2 hours ago, Coinery said:

It just seems that some historians want to leave out the Angevins from the start of the Plantagenet dynasty, saying the true English kings of the period begin at Henry III? Equally, there seems to be as much confusion (at least for me) about whether the Plantagenets finish with Richard II or continue until the end of the York and Lancastrians?

The last Plantagenet ruler was Richard III. If, as is possible but not certain, he had the Princes disposed of, it was because the Plantagenets as a whole had a mighty distrust bordering on hatred, of the Woodvilles whom they regarded as ambitious usurpers; one of the Princes, the uncrowned Edward V, was a Woodville, being the son of Edward IV and Elizabeth Woodville. 

The Tudors regarded themselves as having a tenuous claim to the throne and set about eliminating all the Plantagenet heirs they saw as having a more significant claim than they did. This of course was one of the reasons that Henry Tudor married into the Yorkist family as it grounded his spurious claim more firmly.

[Coinery]

So to collect the Plantagenets is to include every king from Henry II through to Richard III?

Perhaps I’d better just confine my interest, then, to the first 3 Edwards and abandon any fancy ideas that would include Tealby pennies and Richard III coins. Although I have seen a fabulous Tealby that’s available!!! 

[Rob]

37 minutes ago, Coinery said:

So to collect the Plantagenets is to include every king from Henry II through to Richard III?

Perhaps I’d better just confine my interest, then, to the first 3 Edwards and abandon any fancy ideas that would include Tealby pennies and Richard III coins. Although I have seen a fabulous Tealby that’s available!!! 

Excluding the Lancastrians. They weren't Plantagenets.

I have a Richard that I might get rid of when I can. Neither cheap nor nice, but I do so badly want a better one.

[Ukstu]

I'd go with Henry II tealby and SC , Richard Ist , John , Henry III Sc & Lc, Edward 1-3 , Richard II , Edward IV and Richard III. 

You may struggle with a Richard III. Its the only one i don't have. One day I'll find one. Rather save and get a groat i think.

Edited December 24, 2017 by Ukstu

[Coinery]

Many thanks, gents, that clears it up for me nicely!

[Peckris]

On 24 December 2017 at 0:39 AM, Rob said:

Excluding the Lancastrians. They weren't Plantagenets.

Not true, surely? One branch descended from the Black Prince, the other from his sibling, but they're all Plantagenets?

[Sleepy]

Peckris is right, the House of Lancaster is descended from John of Gaunt the younger brother of the Black Prince so they are Plantagenet's. Johns son Henry Bollingbroke overthrew and probably murdered Richard II (the Black Prince's son) and took the crown as Henry IV. The House of York is even more difficult to understand, but they are basically descended from the 1st Duke of York Edmund of Langley another younger brother of the Back Prince. The main Plantagenet line died with Richard II.

[Rob]

OK, I stand corrected.

[Coinery]

If the main line ended with R2, are we saying then that the kings thereafter are NOT truly Plantagenets?

Are R3 and E4 Plantagenet, then? ?

[Peckris]

35 minutes ago, Coinery said:

If the main line ended with R2, are we saying then that the kings thereafter are NOT truly Plantagenets?

Are R3 and E4 Plantagenet, then? ?

It all gets very complicated around the time of the WArs of the Roses. Richard II was succeeded by Henry IV and there is some dispute there. Henry V of Agincourt fame was 'legitimate' heir to Henry IV (if you accept the one, the latter follows). However the following heir Henry VI (also Lancastrian) was a very ineffectual  ruler, and his throne was taken by the Yorkist side, with assistance from the very powerful Earl of Warwick. Warwick then changed sides and Henry VI became king again, only to be deposed once more by Edward IV who despite being a womaniser and marrying the commoner Elizabeth Woodville, was considered to be a strong and able ruler. When he died, the remaining Yorkists were determined not to let the throne fall into the hands of the Woodvilles, which was main reason for Richard III taking (or usurping) the throne. Then Margaret Beaufort saw an opportunity for her son Henry Tudor - whose claim to the throne was extremely weak - to invade, which led to Bosworth and the start of the Tudor dynasty. 

However most modern historians would probably agree that the Plantagenets - as rulers - ended at Bosworth, and Henry Tudor and his son disposed of as many Plantagenet heirs and families as they could.  

[Sleepy]

Although the York and Lancaster's are considered "cadet branches" of the Plantagenet's they are as much Plantagenet's as the main line, they were both directly related to Edward III, and if they had surnames in those days and it was Plantagenet then it would be Plantagenet. It must be remembered that the name Plantagenet wasn't used until Richard of York, the father of Edward IV, started using the name as a way of subtly emphasizing his claim to the throne, and he hadn't murdered anyone, yet. 

By the end of the war of the roses the 2 had wiped out just about every legitimate claimant and Henry Tudors claim was via an illegitimate female line from John of Gaunt. 

[Coinery]

Gosh! Thank-you so much Peck and Sleepy, truly appreciate your efforts in explaining this! 

I’m back to feeling happy with the dynasty spanning H2-R3!