1953 frosted proof VIP/cameo/specimen saga continues

[craigy]

a few weeks back i emailed the Royal mint museum in regards to the 1953 VIP proof crown, mine ticks all the boxes in the books but as the debates have shown its a contentious issue, 

 

this was the museums reply, have replied and am awaiting my next reply, 

 

Dear Mr Cook

 

 

 

I am very sorry for the delay in response to your enquiry, dated 4 August.

 

Frosting is a variable feature of the 1953 proofs. We cannot comment further without seeing the coin you have, but even then it is extremely difficult to identify the so called VIP finish referred to by coin dealers.

 

With this in mind, it may be that any photographic examples we could supply will show a variation of frosting to the type that your pieces display.

 

 

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 23, 2017 by craigy

[craigy]

i also asked about the 1937 vip proof crowns etc 

[craigy]

and asked about the specimen finish, 

[Unwilling Numismatist]

Well done for asking, if you feel the need to torment them some more, why not also enquire about the 1951 + box colours - does Blue actually exist, and the 1965 Churchill satin finish

 

Should give someone in the RM at least a minor migraine!

[Rob]

16 hours ago, Unwilling Numismatist said:

Well done for asking, if you feel the need to torment them some more, why not also enquire about the 1951 + box colours - does Blue actually exist, and the 1965 Churchill satin finish

 

Should give someone in the RM at least a minor migraine!

Why not keep the questions sensible and asked for a good reason? Asking them questions for the hell of it means that fewer useful answers will be received, because they aren't going increase the number of people employed to reply to them. They must have a huge number that never get replied to due to resource issues. I know I've got a lot going back to 2008 that were never answered - probably because they were technical and required a bit of spadework.

Edited November 24, 2017 by Rob

[zookeeperz]

Well we know there are normal struck 1951 Festival  proof coins which are all the ones in Green/burgundy/Blue cases except for the blue box issue which were specifically issued at the festival itself.  As for the other two colours perhaps one was for UK and one for overseas?. We have plain edge proof which was struck in error on unedged blanks . I guess they could of been in any of the  colour cases?  Then there is the VIP proofs with frosted designs (not totally true) VIP proofs also appear with a regular proof finish with a cameo subject against a mirrored field. Also there is a Matt proof version. It just seems strange to me whenever you see these come up at auction there is no mention of "in box of issue with C.O.A"

So how do they distinguish Between an early struck standard proof and a VIP proof. Especially against the VIP proof that doesn't have a frosted finish? I left off the two obvious coins as the frosted one we know what that looks like and the matt proof would be just as easily identifiable here are 3 versions of the standard issue versus a non frosted VIP proof. If we were to send in the VIP proof raw would they even recognise it as one?

 

[craigy]

i'm still out on the subject and believe there is no hard and fast rule, we'll see what the museum come up with, 

[Peckris]

I've seen regular 1951 crowns exactly like the VIP Proof in the picture above.

[VickySilver]

Which IMO deserve SOME premium but not 2k worth...Even if specimens were struck at different times and with slightly different techniques, if they can not be readily separated by experts side to side, or even by the very people that struck them, then perhaps many of our separations are arteficial at best. Spencer,who wrote the article in the 1982 Journal of the ANA about VIP Record proofs - and who did an excellent job IMO - struggled to differentiate specimen vs. proof, etc.

[Rob]

As I said, I believe the attribute VIP was hijacked. The rare non-proof set years were only ever struck in minimal numbers, hence they could only be given to a select number of 'Important Recipients' (VIPs). As many of these bore a frosted design, the term was carried over to the regular set years (which are predominantly unfrosted) and applied to any common year coin with a frosted bust. However, there were always too many to be considered truly VIPs, so only the better examples were extracted and given the accolade. A triumph of marketing over official reality methinks.

 

[zookeeperz]

This coin is a normal 1951 and If it was a VIP proof I would want more than a green box and a standard docket that you can buy anywhere. Be interesting over the next few days what this realises. I'll have to dig my greenies out ( sounded different in my head lol). But alas I couldn't do that just not made that way.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1951-VIP-Proof-George-VI-British-Crown-Festival-of-Britain-Boxed/352215027958

[Sword]

3 hours ago, zookeeperz said:

This coin is a normal 1951 and If it was a VIP proof I would want more than a green box and a standard docket that you can buy anywhere. Be interesting over the next few days what this realises. I'll have to dig my greenies out ( sounded different in my head lol). But alas I couldn't do that just not made that way.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1951-VIP-Proof-George-VI-British-Crown-Festival-of-Britain-Boxed/352215027958

"been in a drawer since 1951 when I went to the Festival of Britain on a school trip". It's not likely they would have given a VIP proof to a school kid unless he happens to be Prince Charles. Perhaps VIP stands for vividly imaginative person. 

[zookeeperz]

56 minutes ago, Sword said:

"been in a drawer since 1951 when I went to the Festival of Britain on a school trip". It's not likely they would have given a VIP proof to a school kid unless he happens to be Prince Charles. Perhaps VIP stands for vividly imaginative person. 

LOL actually his comment probably did him more harm than good unless he is misinformed and thinks the coins  picked up at the exhibition were all VIP proofs because of the occasion?  That is one violent draw it has been sitting in? Perhaps a few earthquakes were involved

 

Edited November 25, 2017 by zookeeperz

[VickySilver]

IMO not even a proof. Also, there is a die flaw on G6 cheek, nice reverse although out of focus could be hiding many hairlines, etc.

[mick1271]

On 11/24/2017 at 0:07 AM, Unwilling Numismatist said:

Well done for asking, if you feel the need to torment them some more, why not also enquire about the 1951 + box colours - does Blue actually exist, and the 1965 Churchill satin finish

 

Should give someone in the RM at least a minor migraine!

heres a blue proof set box http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1951-Festival-of-Britain-Boxed-Official-ex-Proof-Farthing-to-Crown-10-Coin-Set/292344018858?hash=item44110fb7aa:g:PZMAAOSwCkZZQQvz

[Peckris]

1 minute ago, mick1271 said:

heres a blue proof set box http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1951-Festival-of-Britain-Boxed-Official-ex-Proof-Farthing-to-Crown-10-Coin-Set/292344018858?hash=item44110fb7aa:g:PZMAAOSwCkZZQQvz

Ah, you were referring to the box colour for the entire set?

Ok, but AFAIK, the individual boxed crowns only come in green or burgundy. If you've got a picture of a blue one, I'd be more than happy to see it.  

[mick1271]

Just now, Peckris said:

Ah, you were referring to the box colour for the entire set?

Ok, but AFAIK, the individual boxed crowns only come in green or burgundy. If you've got a picture of a blue one, I'd be more than happy to see it.  

I have came across a couple of blue crown boxes too ,but never in hand ,always through pictures .My only concern with them is that the light blue colour may be from green boxes that have faded in sunlight (there seems to be a few different shades of green out there).pics never show the inside of the box ,where the original colour would be intact . also found this one where the colour has faded away to white  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FESTIVAL-OF-BRITAIN-PROOF-CROWN-COIN-1951-WITH-ORIGINAL-BOX-AND-COA-ANOTHER/382279211150?hash=item59019dd88e:g:90MAAOSweW5VdJTS 

[Unwilling Numismatist]

Sorry - crossed wires. I know about the blue "set" but for some reason got it into my head there was a blue box like the  green and red/burgundy ones.

 

[mick1271]

2 minutes ago, Unwilling Numismatist said:

Sorry - crossed wires. I know about the blue "set" but for some reason got it into my head there was a blue box like the  green and red/burgundy ones.

 

It is blue crown boxes (not full proof set boxes ) I have been talking about . will need to go on the hunt and see if I can  track down a pic of one .

[Unwilling Numismatist]

4 hours ago, mick1271 said:

It is blue crown boxes (not full proof set boxes ) I have been talking about . will need to go on the hunt and see if I can  track down a pic of one .

In that case my original post stands.

I've never seen a blue box for this crown

 

[zookeeperz]

25 minutes ago, Unwilling Numismatist said:

In that case my original post stands.

I've never seen a blue box for this crown

 

I think it is a case of the misinformation/rumour passed on and on. It is probably more likely the blue case was for the festival set struck at the festival and the black case was the set struck at the RM. The green box with the single crown being much scarcer than the burgundy had to be the one struck at the festival and the burgundy issue was from the RM. It makes so much more sense.

 

[Peckris]

20 hours ago, zookeeperz said:

The green box with the single crown being much scarcer than the burgundy had to be the one struck at the festival and the burgundy issue was from the RM. It makes so much more sense.

Considering the huge numbers attending the Festival of Britain compared with the coin collector base of the time*, wouldn't that be more likely the other way around?

*(nearly 2m 1951 Crowns compared with 20,000 proof sets struck)

[zookeeperz]

3 hours ago, Peckris said:

Considering the huge numbers attending the Festival of Britain compared with the coin collector base of the time*, wouldn't that be more likely the other way around?

*(nearly 2m 1951 Crowns compared with 20,000 proof sets struck)

1 million were struck at the festival apparently . Seems an awful lot to me ?

[Peckris]

18 minutes ago, zookeeperz said:

1 million were struck at the festival apparently . Seems an awful lot to me ?

8 and a half million attended the South Bank exhibition alone; then add in several million more at events held around the UK, and you have a huge potential market for the crown as a keepsake. Also consider it was the first non-gold coin to feature the popular Pistrucci 'George & the Dragon' design for 50 years, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the number sold at Festival events far exceeded the number applied for by post from the RM. 

Edited November 26, 2017 by Peckris

[shagreen]

Here is another 1951 case for the discussion what is the difference between a case and a box anyway? This is an official Royal Mint case will put the open case pic up next sending