Elizabeth I

[Gaz T]

How did this happen to this threepence , one quarter of the rev is lower than the rest of the design?

[Peter]

The man with the hammer doth too much mead.

[Rob]

Or to put it another way - double striking.

[Gaz T]

Thanks Peter and Rob, so someone hit the punch slightly to the left, not a direct hit, On the second strike.

 

Edited November 13, 2017 by Gaz T

[Rob]

1 hour ago, Gaz T said:

Thanks Peter and Rob, so someone hit the punch slightly to the left, not a direct hit, On the second strike.

 

No, the detail will have been entered using the individual punch components in the correct place, with a small allowance for position from die to die. What has happened is that it takes a few blows of the hammer to make a coin from the finished dies, particularly in the case of those on a larger flan. If either the dies or the blank move relative to each other between blows, you can get what is termed a double strike. It is quite common for this to occur, in fact a cleanly struck large module hammered coin is a very desirable thing.

The attached shows the effects of multiple hammer blows. 5 blows were required to strike the coin - the obvious angled parts top and bottom, together with the centre band which is similarly (but less obviously due to lighting conditions), angled on both left and right. The bit in the middle is flat. It also shows that the blank moved a little between strikes as indicated by the discontinuity in the inner circle by the horse's rump.

[davetmoneyer]

Sorry Rob but the Majority of hammered coins (shilling to farthing) are struck with just a single blow of the hammer production speed doesn't allow time to mess around. Some (a lot) of double strikes are caused by the lower die working loose in the wooden anvil block and when this happens the lower die bounces in the block whilst re-seating causing multiple impressions on the coin. I demonstrated this perfectly at York coin fair several years ago then striking a groat the lower die did bounce and the resulting coin showed 4 distinct strikings Several witnesses to this. The Threepence is an example of actual double striking from dies correctly made

[Rob]

23 minutes ago, davetmoneyer said:

Sorry Rob but the Majority of hammered coins (shilling to farthing) are struck with just a single blow of the hammer production speed doesn't allow time to mess around. Some (a lot) of double strikes are caused by the lower die working loose in the wooden anvil block and when this happens the lower die bounces in the block whilst re-seating causing multiple impressions on the coin. I demonstrated this perfectly at York coin fair several years ago then striking a groat the lower die did bounce and the resulting coin showed 4 distinct strikings Several witnesses to this. The Threepence is an example of actual double striking from dies correctly made

OK, I obviously didn't explain it very well as I was using the halfcrown as an example, where the profile is clearly a 4 sided podium with 5 distinct flat areas at completely different angles and I would have said struck from multiple blows because I don't think the force on the bounce would have been sufficient to strike up the different sections. The area showing the flash is sharply angled to the middle section and the bottom angle is equally sharp. Only the section from 9-11 o'clock isn't well struck.

I can see the smaller ones will only require one blow and your explanation make perfect sense. I did say the die was struck from correctly made dies.

Edited November 14, 2017 by Rob

[Coinery]

3 hours ago, davetmoneyer said:

Sorry Rob but the Majority of hammered coins (shilling to farthing) are struck with just a single blow of the hammer production speed doesn't allow time to mess around. Some (a lot) of double strikes are caused by the lower die working loose in the wooden anvil block and when this happens the lower die bounces in the block whilst re-seating causing multiple impressions on the coin. I demonstrated this perfectly at York coin fair several years ago then striking a groat the lower die did bounce and the resulting coin showed 4 distinct strikings Several witnesses to this. The Threepence is an example of actual double striking from dies correctly made

Just out of interest, Dave, what would be the cause of an obverse double strike, as you've experienced it, the top die reverberating? Also, now that it's piqued my interest, can we assume that the reverse is always the die in the block? Or could there be occasions where a particular die set strike better in another configuration?

[davetmoneyer]

Quote

can we assume that the reverse is always the die in the block? Or could there be occasions where a particular die set strike better in another configuration?

The Obverse die or pile ( the one that has more complex design - usually the portrait) is the one that has the locating spike. The reverse die or trussleis the one that takes the hammer blow and is the one that wears way quickly ( usually the die reduces in length by approx. 8 mm every 1000 coins).

easy to remember

Trussles in the hand , piles on the bottom

[Gaz T]

Really interesting chaps, thanks for the comments.

Just out of interest Would larger coins such as crowns and half crowns be heated before hammering.

[davetmoneyer]

Gaz no, silver does not strike well when heated - it goes very brittle and you get a lot of striking cracks. To strike correctly the silver needs to be heated to red heat for no more than 15 seconds and then quenched in a cooling/blanching solution to disrupt the crystalline structure that develops when heated These annealed blanks are then struck cold

 

[Gaz T]

Thanks Dave.

I thought striking cracks may have been caused by the silver cooling to fast, only reason I asked