Coins without Denomination

[edinburghPF]

I have been wondering about the Battle of Britain 50p, which I find fascinating.

A couple of points.

There exists three distinct types and maybe 8 variants (metals etc).

The Mint claims it was not an error and was deliberate. This can be seen in the technical announcements of the coin.

BUT the Mint issued a secondary specfication of the coin with the denomination.

 

The questions:

Is there any other Decimal Coin without a denomination?

If so, is there any other 50p without a denomination?

Have any other Decimal coins had a secondary (replacement?) specification presented by the MInt?

Does the Mint have a requirement to place the denomination on coins?

[headsortails]

the 2011 1st edition aquatics coin was replaced but there is no replacement for the battle of Britain coin,just three types as you have pointed out.

[headsortails]

I think the treasury should be responsible for the denomination stamped on coins produced by the royal mint,example the £100 coin now worth only there weight in silver that being about twenty quid.

[secret santa]

On 3/6/2017 at 7:50 PM, edinburghPF said:

There exists three distinct types and maybe 8 variants (metals etc).

Are these types of Battle of Britain 50p defined anywhere ?

[headsortails]

5 hours ago, secret santa said:

Are these types of Battle of Britain 50p defined anywhere ?

three different obverses.

 

[edinburghPF]

8 hours ago, headsortails said:

I think the treasury should be responsible for the denomination stamped on coins produced by the royal mint,example the £100 coin now worth only there weight in silver that being about twenty quid.

In The Gazette, the specification of all coins are laid out clearly. From the precise and legal jargon, I would say it was clear that these specifications must be met, except for a minute variation in weight/dimension as set.

But I wondeering if there is a requirement for coins to display their denomination? I assume so, or there would have been no need to reissue a specification for the ciruclating coin.

It would seem that at LEAST date, deonomination and effigy are required. And there may/must be guidelines on the useage of the writing too.

I would love to find out where these requirements are laid out. I cannot believe that they are just rough conventions that are adhered to.

 

My overall point is that this coin seems to be a case of Specification Error, in which the specification omitted the deonomination in error?

[Rob]

There is nothing to say that a coin has to have any denomination indicated as far as I am aware. Coins are proclaimed legal tender on the basis of their description which will be the specification laid down, but to consider a coin without the denomination in the legend or any other component that is usually present to not be valid currency would also require the mint to recall any coins with errors - which they clearly do not.

[headsortails]

perhaps then the no denomination battle of britain coin isn't legal tender like the £100 coins that do have denomination.

[headsortails]

thinking about it,didn't the 1977 jubilee crown have a denomination of 25p with none stamped on the coin.

[Rob]

Yes, and the G&D crowns don't have it either, without exception. Just goes on physical characteristics.

[richtips86]

23 hours ago, Rob said:

There is nothing to say that a coin has to have any denomination indicated as far as I am aware. Coins are proclaimed legal tender on the basis of their description which will be the specification laid down, but to consider a coin without the denomination in the legend or any other component that is usually present to not be valid currency would also require the mint to recall any coins with errors - which they clearly do not.

Surely though it does need to have the denomination stated. Aside from knowing that 50p coins are that colour and shape / design, surely anyone accepting the coin is doing so based upon custom and practice rather than a legal guarantee of the value of the token and what is to say that whoever they then attempted to use that coin with would accept it? 

 

[Rob]

A design is adopted and then made legal tender by proclamation. That's it. The legal guarantee of a coin's value stems from the proclamation which is further down the line from a decision on design features.

You only need to have a number if all coins are the same size regardless of denomination. Think US banknotes.

[richtips86]

I had no idea! Thanks

[Matteo95]

technically a coin without denomination is not a coin ...

[Rob]

A coin is something that has been proclaimed currency with a value. The debate is whether the denomination has to be displayed on that coin. I say it doesn't because if so, the Royal Mint would have had to recall all the undated 20p pieces for example.

[headsortails]

if the no denomination 4th edition battle of Britain 50p is not a coin,then why is in place in the 2015 commemorative coin sets?

A question for royal mint perhaps.

[headsortails]

A little check and it dose appear the mint states in black and white the coin has a denomination of 50p.

[headsortails]

the common Britannia 50p coin doesn't state 50p but just 50,point being is that 50p or £50? Therefore is doesn't technically fully state its denomination so must also technically not be a real coin.

I wonder if they will be withdrawn?

[Nick]

Whether or not a coin contains the denomination does not have any bearing on whether it is legal or not.  The various Coinage Acts over the years allow the government to make a proclamation that specifies what constitutes a particular denomination and as long as a coin meets those requirements it is legal.

Here is an example of a proclamation: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/2446362

[headsortails]

I think it comes down to HMS treasury in they honour the coin or don't.

[headsortails]

on the other hand the mint states even though coins have legal tender,coins designed not for general circulation may not be accepted by banks and shops.

http://www.royalmint.com/aboutus/policies-and-guidelines/legal-tender-guidelines

[Rob]

The original question was whether a coin without the denomination incorporated in the design was permitted to enter circulation. I would suggest the answer is yes and that query has been sorted.

[headsortails]

the coin can be circulated but doesn't have to be accepted as apparently even legal tender doesn't have to be accepted,IE if payment is offered up in great number of small change,but no one can be prosecuted for goods or services recived if they offer up payment in legal tender,the coins are legal tender.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2594273/Tesco-staff-banned-customer-paying-bill-commemorative-20-coins-called-POLICE-didnt-cash.html

Edited March 17, 2017 by headsortails

[Peckris]

Most early milled silver coins 6d or over bear no denomination and nor do the coppers. The denomination only starts appearing from the mid 19th Century and even then it's not invariable.

[Rob]

Prior to Victoria, higher denomination milled things that had their value indicated were very much the exception. The BoE tokens and the 1804 5/- Dollar spring to mind as probably the only issues to bear a value. The 1799 farthings and the small silver were marked, but again, hardly a case of universal adoption. Obviously there was far more extensive marking of the Tudor and Stuart hammered coinage.