1797 gilt pattern farthing

[mrbadexample]

Righto, just to stop Pete moaning, here is a post.

I acquired this 1797 pattern farthing quite recently. I understand that it is gilt copper. Other than that I know nothing about it as it's not in any of the books I have. So can someone tell me more about it please? 

Cheers,

Jon

[Rob]

It has been gilt, but possibly wasn't originally so IMO. I'd have to see it in hand, but genuinely gilt as struck coins are rarely if ever seen in this condition and the flans tend to be well made with the gilding holding fast, so only the highest points lose the gold. Any poor post mint gilding comes off relatively however. Based on the pictures it ought to be a KF1, but where is the ship?

[mrbadexample]

What's a KF1?  And what would a KF1 weigh? This is 7.4g.

I'll bring it to the next Midland...

Edited July 4, 2016 by mrbadexample

[Rob]

24 minutes ago, mrbadexample said:

What's a KF1?  And what would a KF1 weigh? This is 7.4g.

I'll bring it to the next Midland...

Peck's nomenclature for Kuchler farthing type 1 in his tome. Peck 1186 & 1187 are gilt and copper respectively. Weight is not likely to be either an issue or very informative as you find the flan weights vary a bit on account of them not being for circulation.I don't have a crappy example to show for comparison, but attached is a halfpenny in fairly dire (for a pattern/proof) condition that passed through my hands a few years ago. You can see the high points have exposed the underlying copper, but the majority of the gilding is intact, basically because it is relatively thick (note the scratches above the trident which haven't exposed copper), which post mint gilding tends not to be. For your coin to have such widespread gilt removal, I would think it wasn't original.

A few years ago at Warwick & Warwick, there were a couple of Soho pieces that were effectively gold painted. I think Colin G will remember them, but can't remember if the other one was a farthing and if so whether this was it.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Rob

[Colin G.]

Doesn't ring any bells with me, I can't remember what I did last week unless I write it down! 

I do not seem to have any notes about them though. The ship appears to be there but very faint, which could also be an indicator of a gilt being applied post mint.

[mrbadexample]

There is a ship.

 

Assuming then, that this has been "adjusted" post mint, what was it to start with? 

[Rob]

copper probably. Looking at it would be easy to determine as you only have copper with or without bronzed finish, silver, pewter/lead, gilt or gold as potential metals. No aluminium as it hadn't been discovered during the Soho period.

[mrbadexample]

47 minutes ago, Rob said:

copper probably. Looking at it would be easy to determine as you only have copper with or without bronzed finish, silver, pewter/lead, gilt or gold as potential metals. No aluminium as it hadn't been discovered during the Soho period.

No, I mean what was it, not what was it made of.  Just a pattern farthing that someone has gilded?

[Colin G.]

Yes it would appear to be a copper pattern farthing to which someone has decided to apply gilt. Quite a scarce type as well

[copper123]

Some git has gilted a nice coin and ruined it IMHO

[mrbadexample]

Marvellous. How do we remove gilt then?

[Colin G.]

Forget removing it, plate it with copper 

[PWA 1967]

[mrbadexample]

3 hours ago, Colin G. said:

Forget removing it, plate it with copper 

So, err, paper over the cracks, so to speak? 

Edited July 12, 2016 by mrbadexample

[mrbadexample]

Today I took this to Format Coins in Birmingham, where Garry Charman took not much time at all to confirm it is 100% legitimate. He did say it had had a hard life.

90% knackered, perhaps, but genuine. ?

[Peter]

Bit like me