1889 Penny / Die Pairings and Date Widths

[alfnail]

The recent comments regarding the 1889 wide date (under the ‘more pennies’ thread) has prompted me to write to ask members to help me get to the bottom of something which has been bothering me for a while………and keeps resurfacing.

This will be a detailed posting so please be warned that if you are not interested in either pennies, or their date width variations, then you may not wish to read on.

If you are still with me then please allow me to set the scene.

The 2 main die pairings for this date are:-

• Freeman 127 (12 +N) = Gouby BP 1889 A (R + r) and Gouby BP 1889 B (R + r)

• Freeman 128 (13 + N) = Gouby BP 1889 C (S + r)

N.B. Gouby decided to allocate type ‘B’ to the narrow date variety saying that “this is because it was first referenced back in 1986”. It does, however, still have the same die pairing (R + r) as his type A.

At this juncture it is worth noting that the two obverses involved are very similar, the main identifier being the ‘extra leaf – top back’ on Obverse R, which is missing on Obverse S. They can be very difficult to distinguish on lower grade specimens which have little hair detail remaining.   

Wide Date Variety

Penny variety collectors will know that in Gouby’s 2009 book, on Page 85, he additionally describes a much wider numeral 9 sub-variety to which he assigns type Cd, indicating that this wide 9 has only been seen when paired with his obverse S, not R.

I have only ever seen a handful of these wide 9 specimens, the first time in the Crocker sale back in 2009, the year Gouby’s book was published. The second coin was in the Workman sale in 2010.

In 2011 I was lucky enough to acquire a better grade piece on ebay, and I then saw a further example sold at London Coin Auctions ion 2013.

I have attached images of all 4 of these coins; mine will be on a separate post to follow on immediately due to file size. All 4 examples cause me problems in reconciling with the advertisements and documented Cd type, and this is where I would like some assistance………..the Crocker and Workman examples are owned by other members of this site.

Crocker example was advertised as F__. Dies 12 + N

Workman example was advertised as  F127. Dies 12 + N. Gouby CD

My example was simply advertised as an 1889 penny on ebay

LCA example was advertised as Gouby BP1889Cd

[alfnail]

Problems with these sale descriptions:-

• The Crocker coin was advertised as 12 + N. This means it would be an obverse R, but Gouby does not document a wide date variety Ad for that obverse, only an Aa. Back in 2010 I put the Crocker coin down to a description error, most likely driven by the worn example with no hair detail present in the area that would need examining.

• The low grade Workman example seemed to be a similar mistake as the Crocker coin, exacerbated by additionally describing as Gouby CD, which contradicts F127.

• I then found my ebay wide date example and was a little surprised to see that it clearly had the extra leaf present, therefore making it a Gouby obverse R, which would be a type Ad if documented.

• The LCA example confirmed my ebay finding, also displaying the extra leaf, although disappointingly described once more as a Gouby Cd when clearly not an obverse S.

Further post and picture to follow on immediately….

[alfnail]

On Page 85 Gouby writes “this extremely wide date has been referenced as BP 1889 Cd as it is more than likely that there will be other date widths found between 14 ½ and 16 teeth width and they can be listed, if found, as Cb or Cc”

Whilst I am actually not an avid collector of date width variations the 1889 penny has for some reason captured my imagination and I have looked for intermediate date widths for several years since first reading Gouby’s 2009 book. These endeavours have led me to collect the 5 coins now pictured below, all taken with the same magnification on my digital microscope. They are, however, all type A’s obverse R with the extra leaf and, having written to MG over the years about these findings, I have assigned the letter suffixes Ab, Ac and Ad for these undocumented types.

I have not located types Cb,Cc or Cd and decided to stop looking a couple of years ago.

I have just had a quick look at the 1889 pennies currently listed on ebay (over 100 coins) and can only see Aa & Ca date types, an indication as to the rarity of the other date widths.  

My question for members is:-

Does anyone own, or has pictures of, a clear type Cd example?   

[secret santa]

Did Michael say why he he had assigned the wide reverse to 1889C ? i.e. was he sure that it had obverse S ? The photo in his book appears to be from a worn coin whose obverse would be difficult to ascertain. In fact, given that the narrower date 1889B is paired with obv R, isn't it more likely that further date variations would also be on the same die pairing ?

[alfnail]

Part of his reply to one of my emails said "There is a possibility that the picture of BP 1889 Cd is a worn example of that die. I will try and find were I have put that coin..."

..........but he did not get back to me, so presumably was unable to locate the specimen which led to the entry in his book.

This has left me thinking, perhaps same as you Richard, that the Cd should have been documented as an Ad and maybe there are no Cd's to be found.

  

[terrysoldpennies]

Alf . I agree with all your findings, as all the examples I have seen have had obverse S with the extra leaf , but I have made some extra discoveries to the 1889 types .  I have to go out now, but later today I will get back to you on my findings.           Terry

[secret santa]

That seems to be what the evidence currently suggests ? Interestingly, when I recorded the Crocker specimen (which I bought) in my collection details, I recorded it as obverse R, although it's too worn to be sure.

[alfnail]

1 hour ago, terrysoldpennies said:

Alf . I agree with all your findings, as all the examples I have seen have had obverse S with the extra leaf , but I have made some extra discoveries to the 1889 types .  I have to go out now, but later today I will get back to you on my findings.           Terry

Thanks Terry, look forward to hearing from you later, note it's obverse R with the extra leaf. Obverse S has leaf removed and some incuse hair engraved in it's place. Further picture attached illustrating difference. Regards, Ian    

[terrysoldpennies]

1 hour ago, alfnail said:

Thanks Terry, look forward to hearing from you later, note it's obverse R with the extra leaf. Obverse S has leaf removed and some incuse hair engraved in it's place. Further picture attached illustrating difference. Regards, Ian    

Hi  Alf  - Richard .   I suppose we must assume at the present time that the wide date types are all Obverse R, until and if others turn up on Obv. S , but here's the thing ,  all 1889s also have either R and E in RE G  touch or with a slight gap , ie  R E G , now I have be observing which of the types are present on Obv. S  or on  R , I haven't been observing them long enough to make a definite statement . What I can say is that all the 16 tooth coins I have seen all have the R and E touching, and the narrowest date types have the gap, but the common 15 tooth coin has both types. Now this is where a larger pool of higher grade coins needs to observed , and compared.    Also on Michael Goubys site he shows type BP 1889 B as 14 tooth , but in his book the same pictured date is listed as  13 1/2 tooth , a mistake you may say , well I have found two differing narrow dates  one  13 1/2  tooth and other 14 tooth.             PS Alf   I've hunted high and low for that large bag of 1877 narrow date pennies I put away , but no luck , let you have a few when they turn up          Terry

Edited April 24, 2016 by terrysoldpennies

[alfnail]

Many thanks for your posting and pictures Terry. I have just examined 3 narrow date specimens which I have previously owned and now sold, and discovered that 2 of these have the same date width as the previous picture I posted of Gouby B. One of these 3 coins is, however, slightly wider and appears to be the same as you have shown in your bottom date picture i.e. somewhere in between the Gouby B and Gouby Aa date widths. This new narrow date is something I have previously missed so thanks for bringing it to my attention.

I have used my old ‘pre-sale’ picture and now show the date on this last coin (described as Bx) alongside the more common narrow date B which I posted earlier……again with vertical lines inserted from top of 9 and centre robe to make comparison easier.

[scott]

both those types can be found readily.

if you look:

top one

top of 9 above 8

tail of 9 just below bottom of 8

 

second one

top of 9 level with top of 8

tail below

 

you can tell these widths by the general placement of the 9's compared to the 8 next to it.

this is a rarer one

 

 

better ones i own

 

 

Edited April 24, 2016 by scott

[secret santa]

I believe that Terry may have unwittingly discovered another difference between Gouby obverses R and S. I previously thought that the extra leaf was the only difference, which made it very difficult to distinguish between varieties on worn examples. But, having looked again after terry's post above, it appears to me that obverse R has the R and E of REG separated by a definite gap whereas obverse S has the R and E virtually touching. I only have a few examples of each but so far this difference is consistent. Could other collectors please check their coins for me. This could prove to be an effective means of distinguishing between R and S (Freeman 12 and 13) on worn specimens.

 

[alfnail]

10 hours ago, scott said:

both those types can be found readily.

if you look:

top one

top of 9 above 8

tail of 9 just below bottom of 8

 

second one

top of 9 level with top of 8

tail below

 

you can tell these widths by the general placement of the 9's compared to the 8 next to it.

this is a rarer one

 

 

better ones i own

 

 

I’m afraid you are mistaken, Gouby B’s are NOT readily available; there are currently none on ebay from over 100 coins. Even a low grade piece will command a premium, as demonstrated by this recent sale at LCA:-

 http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&auc=152&searchlot=2451&searchtype=2

Furthermore you cannot “tell these widths by the general placement of the 9’s compared to the 8 next to it”. The common Aa and Ca date numerals are well aligned at the top, which is also the case with type B. I have added a further picture of narrow date type B and also the common date type Aa to illustrate this good numeral alignment, and one can also see the different location of numerals compared to border teeth and the danger in trying to distinguish these two types purely be reference to numeral spacing. The best way to distinguish the common width from the narrow date is to compare the top of the 9 to the centre drape of Britannia’s gown as illustrated by the red and white lines I have drawn in.

When the 9 climbs progressively into the exergue, as one goes from Aa to Ab,Ac and finally Ad that checking the alignment of the 9 with the other numerals helps with identifying the rarer wider date type/s, your first picture being one of those.

At first glance your OmniCoin pictures both appear to be standard type Aa’s.

[terrysoldpennies]

33 minutes ago, secret santa said:

I believe that Terry may have unwittingly discovered another difference between Gouby obverses R and S. I previously thought that the extra leaf was the only difference, which made it very difficult to distinguish between varieties on worn examples. But, having looked again after terry's post above, it appears to me that obverse R has the R and E of REG separated by a definite gap whereas obverse S has the R and E virtually touching. I only have a few examples of each but so far this difference is consistent. Could other collectors please check their coins for me. This could prove to be an effective means of distinguishing between R and S (Freeman 12 and 13) on worn specimens.

 

Hi Richard . That's what I was still researching . It seems to follow with the 15 tooth types, but the 16 tooth wide dates are type R with the extra leaf and the R and E are touching. So it will take a lot more coins with the extra leaf showing to make it clear which is which.    Terry

[alfnail]

Sorry Terry (Richard) was going to get back to you about the REG business once I had checked my records and coins, all quite interesting. Adding in the Crocker, Workman and LCA pieces I have the following numbers to add into the calculations:-

Gouby	R?EG	Count
Ca	Touch	4
Aa	Gap	3
Ab	Touch	1
Ac	Touch	1
Ad	Touch	4
B	Gap	3
Bx	Gap	2

[terrysoldpennies]

26 minutes ago, alfnail said:

Sorry Terry (Richard) was going to get back to you about the REG business once I had checked my records and coins, all quite interesting. Adding in the Crocker, Workman and LCA pieces I have the following numbers to add into the calculations:-

Gouby	R?EG	Count
Ca	Touch	4
Aa	Gap	3
Ab	Touch	1
Ac	Touch	1
Ad	Touch	4
B	Gap	3
Bx	Gap	2

Hi Alf / richard. That seems to follow my findings so far . I wonder if any C types will come to life with the gap. or B types touching. We will all have to keep a look out. I should add that the narrow date B types seem to have the extra leaf [ obverse R ]       Terry

Edited April 25, 2016 by terrysoldpennies

[davidrj]

Just checked mine, Aa - gap, Ca - touch, will look in my reserve collection  junk box to see if I have any other 1889s to check

David

[scott]

narrow enough?

Edited April 25, 2016 by scott

[PWA 1967]

What year is that Scott 

[scott]

got it down as 1889

based on the last numbers loop being too big for an 8

[secret santa]

7 hours ago, terrysoldpennies said:

Hi Richard . That's what I was still researching . It seems to follow with the 15 tooth types, but the 16 tooth wide dates are type R with the extra leaf and the R and E are touching. So it will take a lot more coins with the extra leaf showing to make it clear which is which.    Terry

So that's blown my theory out of the water if you have obverses with the additional leaf (obverse R) but R and E touching. 

I'm trying to avoid the whole reverse/date width issue at the moment - merely looking at the 2 obverses. In fact, I've now checked a lot of other obverse R coins, given that R was used from 1882 to 1894 and there are versions with R and E separated and versions with them touching - so ignore my previous red herring about the gap being indicative of Obv R !!!! Back to the drawing board.....................

[terrysoldpennies]

1 hour ago, secret santa said:

So that's blown my theory out of the water if you have obverses with the additional leaf (obverse R) but R and E touching. 

I'm trying to avoid the whole reverse/date width issue at the moment - merely looking at the 2 obverses. In fact, I've now checked a lot of other obverse R coins, given that R was used from 1882 to 1894 and there are versions with R and E separated and versions with them touching - so ignore my previous red herring about the gap being indicative of Obv R !!!! Back to the drawing board.....................

Richard there are other interesting variants along similar lines for other years which I'm still looking into .  I will let you all know about them in the near future.   Terry

[alfnail]

A collecting colleague has just confirmed that he has 1 of each of Aa, B and Ca which are same as my findings, so could be added to the counts in the table I posted above

[PWA 1967]

Really good post.

I am a beginner and getting a bit lost ,however hope you dont mind me getting involved in your thread and asking a couple of questions.

Sorry if they are a bit simple ,but thats me 

We all have to learn somewhere 

[scott]

gone through a load of mine, not picked up anything bar the heights of the 9s

and we have date spreads all the way through to 1894, so if we are checking obverses then what we do with 1889 is the same for other dates

and that 1889 narrow was something I spent ages searching for btw

 

Edited April 25, 2016 by scott