EU referendum - in or out?

[Rob]

If there was ever an odds on bet it is that political shocks arise because the ruling parties have left the electorate behind. If Brussels mandated a referendum on membership in each country I would be surprised to see at least one other leave. Sadly, I suspect that the only thing the EU will take from this is to ensure opinions are not sought through the ballot box as the results can be disruptive. Better not to involve the people.

[ChKy]

 

[ChKy]

 

[ChKy]

 

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/nach-brexit-kommt-bregret-briten-bereuen-eu-austritt-a-1099778.html

[ChKy]

http://www.spiegel.de/video/embedurl/video-1684757-640_000_fff.html

[Rob]

It is no good saying London rejected the motion, you have a vote and you live with the decision. If they want to stay in the EU, they are allowed to emigrate to Brussels and live there.

Why do they conveniently forget the 17 million that voted the other way? It's alright saying London wants to be in the EU, but seem to forget that the rest of England and Wales thought differently. Also, a quick course in basic sums would help. The EU is only 7% of the world's population. The other 93% that this 'inclusive' bunch are trying not to engage with are clearly irrelevant. I blame it all on a dependency culture and the nanny state. Nobody says mea culpa any more and works to get themselves out of their own shit.

And I would ban pink ties if I was in charge.

[ChKy]

So you allow Northern Ireland and Scotland to emigrate to Brussels as well? As I mentioned before: WAKE UP!! YOUR COUNTRY IS DEVIDED!! Politically and socially. Old vs Youth, rich vs poor, member state vs member state. Resolve your issues, this is not the fault of EU.

 

BTW How could worlds history have changed if 50,000 people and growing numbers would have protested against Adolph Hitlers election for chancellor?! So be proud of your countrywomen and -men. This (!) is living democracy, you have to deal with it. Go out and discuss issues.

[IanB]

1 hour ago, ChKy said:

 WAKE UP!! YOUR COUNTRY IS DEVIDED!

Well that is news. Our country has been divided in one form or another for centuries but somehow we manage to pull through. We make a speciality of strength through adversity. 

The British population voted to leave, get over it and move on and stop whining about it. We have a tough couple years ahead of us which we will get through because that's what the British people do.

if you don't like it, then move.

Edited July 3, 2016 by IanB

[azda]

IanB, the vote would confirm that the country is divided on the in/out question, also Chky is from Germany so he has nothing to Move on from. The other thing that seems to be Coming to The fore post brexit is The amount of hate crimes being reported, is Britain now becoming a xenophobic nation, Are we saying no one should entertain the UK As a destination due to fear of what could happen?

The whole thing has and is now Running out of control, you'll be building intern camps soon, Germany 1930s is a reminder of what it Looks like.....

[IanB]

8 minutes ago, azda said:

IanB, the vote would confirm that the country is divided on the in/out question, also Chky is from Germany so he has nothing to Move on from. The other thing that seems to be Coming to The fore post brexit is The amount of hate crimes being reported, is Britain now becoming a xenophobic nation, Are we saying no one should entertain the UK As a destination due to fear of what could happen?

The whole thing has and is now Running out of control, you'll be building intern camps soon, Germany 1930s is a reminder of what it Looks like.....

Very few votes have a unanimous conclusion, however in a democratic society it falls to the loser to except the results, not how has been suggested that we keep having votes until the outcome changes.

I figured that Chky was from Germany and it's obvious that he feels strongly about the outcome of the vote, but it was a vote that I guess he could not take part in. The result stands and the British people can argue about it or they can work together to get the best results for all and that includes Europe.

To bring up the subject of internment camps is a very poor argument and really has no place in these discussions.

[azda]

21 minutes ago, IanB said:

To bring up the subject of internment camps is a very poor argument and really has no place in these discussions.

I'm not sure if you're following post brexit racism thats happening in The UK, we should also Sweep that under The carpet and move on. ??

Edited July 3, 2016 by azda

[ChKy]

@azdaThanks David

 

@IanB Well Ian... then you should have realized the violence versus Muslims and the Polish as well. The Polish!! As you refer to history, you should know that the Polish had to retreat in WWII and fought in the British armed forces against fascist Germany. Shame on you people...

 

As you understood correctly I do not have to move. I live in Germany (thankfully) Before UK leaves the union, I would have left the UK already. As you mentioned in an earlier post:

1 hour ago, IanB said:

If you don't like it, then move.

Why should I admire British food, coinage & culture and/or invest my life time, recourse, money & brain input in your society w/o being welcome?! And I am afraid, that this opinion is wide spread in Europe. The French for example want you out as soon as possible....

 

edit: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/aug/20/polish-migrants-strike-blood-donation-protest

Edited July 3, 2016 by ChKy

[jaggy]

Seems to me that 52% of the electorate voted in a free and democratic election to leave the EU and that result should be respected. That people on the losing side or other EU countries are unhappy about that is neither here nor there.

The French and others, we are told, want Britain out as soon as possible. However, they don't get to choose. The UK should invoke Article 50 when it suits us and not when it suits them. The limbo that the EU is now in and the negative political impact on countries like France who have a strong Eurosceptic movement is the UK's best negotiating lever available.

This is not a time for emotion but rather for cold hard political calculation.

[ChKy]

27 minutes ago, jaggy said:

Seems to me that 52% of the electorate voted in a free and democratic election to leave the EU and that result should be respected.

 

Seems to me that 43% of the electorate voted in a free and democratic election Adolf Hitler as the next Chancellor in 1933 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_March_1933

Ok... lets face the consequences...

27 minutes ago, jaggy said:

The limbo that the EU is now in and the negative political impact on countries like France who have a strong Eurosceptic movement is the UK's best negotiating lever available.
 

Indeed not... Britain will not be given better conditions compared to Norway or Switzerland. There will be NO single market w/o free movement of human beings. That is for sure, especially because of the strong Eurosceptic movement

Edited July 3, 2016 by ChKy

[ChKy]

http://mediathek.daserste.de/Presseclub/Neuanfang-oder-Anfang-vom-Ende-Europa-n/Video?bcastId=311790&documentId=36204648

[jaggy]

2 minutes ago, ChKy said:

 

Seems to me that 43% of the electorate voted in a free and democratic election Adolf Hitler as the next Chancellor in 1933 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_federal_election,_March_1933

Ok... lets face the consequences...

Indeed not... Britain will not be given better conditions compared to Norway or Switzerland. There will be NO single market w/o free movement of human beings. That is for sure, especially because of the strong Eurosceptic movement

Seriously, trying to equate this vote with the rise of Hitler in Germany is deeply insulting to the British electorate and just demonstrates that you don't really have any substantive arguments left. Your hyperbole is merely a symptom of the paucity of your position.

No doubt Germany is still trying to live down its Nazi and authoritarian past. That is not the case for the UK.

As to your last point, how negotiations develop remains (sic) to be seen.

[ChKy]

1 minute ago, jaggy said:

Seriously, trying to equate this vote with the rise of Hitler in Germany is deeply insulting to the British electorate and just demonstrates that you don't really have any substantive arguments left. Your hyperbole is merely a symptom of the paucity of your position.

Seriously, I will follow the development of English xenophobia! https://www.google.de/?gws_rd=ssl#q=xenophobia+in+great+britain&tbm=nws

German history is a prime example how things can develop. Resist the beginnings

[IanB]

1 hour ago, azda said:

I'm not sure if you're following post brexit racism thats happening in The UK, we should also Sweep that under The carpet and move on. ??

It looks like we are in agreement that racism is unacceptable and should not be tolerated, but is yours and Chky argument that we are now a nation of racist?

I think we are not, we are a nation who has welcomed immigration for centuries as our DNA will attest to. There are small groups in every culture that hates others not like themselves, but to use it as an argument for the UK choosing to leave Europe is at best clutching at straws.

Chky comparisons with Hitler are insulting to a nation who stood up to tyranny from a dictator  bent on world domination. A small nation of people who said NO we will not tolerate this. I think an apology is required please for all those who made the sacrifice.

Please can we stop this fallback reaction of racism whenever someone disagrees with a political outcome that they do not like. It really is the default setting for those who have run out of arguments.

[jaggy]

2 minutes ago, IanB said:

It looks like we are in agreement that racism is unacceptable and should not be tolerated, but is yours and Chky argument that we are now a nation of racist?

I think we are not, we are a nation who has welcomed immigration for centuries as our DNA will attest to. There are small groups in every culture that hates others not like themselves, but to use it as an argument for the UK choosing to leave Europe is at best clutching at straws.

Chky comparisons with Hitler are insulting to a nation who stood up to tyranny from a dictator  bent on world domination. A small nation of people who said NO we will not tolerate this. I think an apology is required please for all those who made the sacrifice.

Please can we stop this fallback reaction of racism whenever someone disagrees with a political outcome that they do not like. It really is the default setting for those who have run out of arguments.

Accusations of racism are really just a not very elegant way of shutting down discussion.

[Rob]

2 minutes ago, IanB said:

Please can we stop this fallback reaction of racism whenever someone disagrees with a political outcome that they do not like. It really is the default setting for those who have run out of arguments.

Yes.

[ChKy]

12 minutes ago, IanB said:

It looks like we are in agreement that racism is unacceptable and should not be tolerated, but is yours and Chky argument that we are now a nation of racist?

I think we are not, we are a nation who has welcomed immigration for centuries as our DNA will attest to. There are small groups in every culture that hates others not like themselves, but to use it as an argument for the UK choosing to leave Europe is at best clutching at straws.

Chky comparisons with Hitler are insulting to a nation who stood up to tyranny from a dictator  bent on world domination. A small nation of people who said NO we will not tolerate this. I think an apology is required please for all those who made the sacrifice.

Please can we stop this fallback reaction of racism whenever someone disagrees with a political outcome that they do not like. It really is the default setting for those who have run out of arguments.

azda lives in Munich. He has an outside look onto developments like I have. It is important to look onto racism. No apology, that is my opinion. I do not like Pegida, AfD or UKIP. Feel free to look that organisations up by using Google. As "a nation who stood up to tyranny from a dictator  bent on world domination" you have the duty to fight such development in your own great country. Especially as a German citizen I have the duty to look onto such developments as well.

Edited July 3, 2016 by ChKy

[IanB]

3 minutes ago, ChKy said:

azda lives in Munich. He has an outside look onto developments like I have. It is important to look onto racism. No apology, that is my opinion. I do not like Pegida, AfD or UKIP. Feel free to look that organisations up by using Google. As "a nation who stood up to tyranny from a dictator  bent on world domination" you have the duty to fight such development in your own great country. Especially as a German citizen I have the duty as well.

Good, lets fight racism together, it's a fight worth fighting. But comparing us to Hitler, come on, really!

[Rob]

There is too much tarring with the same brush going on here. The racist element in this country is small, just as it is in most other countries, but but does exist, just as it does elsewhere. You won't change that. To suggest that all those who cited immigration as an issue are racist is plain silly. Those who voted for the far-right in the last election are probably a good proxy for the genuinely racist numbers.

When I was growing up in a little country town, migrants were a real rarity. We had a 3rd generation Italian ice-cream business until the first Chinese take-away opened at the end of the 60s. We had a Lebanese family move in after the 73 Arab-Israeli war and the first black family in 1974. Before that you had to travel to a city to see a non-white face.

Many country areas still have virtually no migrants, so when the eastern counties have gone from zero to 20 or 30% migrants in some communities, it changes the whole mix. Relatively unprosperous communities inevitably see this as threatening because it is a genuine sea-change in the community. It doesn't make them racist however. This country has a long history of assimilating displaced groups, the most recent probably being the Ugandan asians thrown out by Idi Amin in the early 70s.

To make any subject taboo will only serve to disguise any grievances, real or perceived.

[ChKy]

5 minutes ago, IanB said:

Good, lets fight racism together, it's a fight worth fighting. But comparing us to Hitler, come on, really!

In my view UKIP is a right wing extremist party and the became strong after the last election... I am not really comparing you personally with Hitler. I am comparing political processes. And you have to admit, that people can be directed in a certain way. Especially in difficult economic situations. Here are the informations what happend before Hitler was elected: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic

History is a rich source for predictions.

 

I posted lots of videos and articles in German. Please use tools for translation or ask some German speaker. I beg you to look for more information and outside opinions.

[azda]

So what should this be called?

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3671769/BT-apologises-German-father-two-accused-burden-Britain-engineer-visited-home.html