jelida

No. The dispossessed working class northerners were about thumbing their noses at the Westminster elite, which is what many Leave votes were about.

Chris, that is a separate sentence moving on to another point, and not quoting you, but referring to a “popular remainer conception” ie numbers of people that I, as others posting, have heard clearly expressing these sorts of ridiculous views. Do I detect a hint of paranoia here? You have chosen to mis-interpret my comments, and then wilfully ignore my previous rebuttal. At no stage was I quoting you as calling leave voters ignorant, and I pointed that out above. However my first comment that you hi-light does refer to your written tendency to put the ‘working class’ leave vote down to general dissatisfaction with government of all parties, and the desire to give them a bloody nose, rather than being a rational decision , based on intellect (the same, on average, as remain voters) and available information (also the same access to the media ) in the background of their real life experiences (job security, immigration pressures on services, housing etc as mentioned before). That is my criticism, the point I made and have just repeated, though the reasons people vote in a certain way are of course multifactorial, and it is perhaps not wise for me to state why a remain voter should vote that way, though I might have more empathy with and understanding of the motivations of a leave voter. Jerry

I would be suspicious too, it has that soapy dullness of a high nickel alloy and you should not get bright green verd on a sterling silver coin. There are many replica early Victorian silver coins cast ‘pre-worn’. Jerry

Where has this come from, Chris? I actually quote you as saying ‘dispossessed ‘ in my first paragraph. Unless in quotes, the rest of the missive is in my words, and without knowing you I would never accuse you of being one of those who consider leave voters being somehow less than intelligent and rational. But I have heard it said by remainers that I know, who feel a leave vote is somehow less valid than a remain vote, by the nature of the people who voted that way. I of course would never make such a blanket accusation. Though I have of course noted that remain voters arguments overwhelmingly revolve around anxieties over national and personal wealth, ie economy and trade, and far less about the right of the majority to make decisions, for better or for worse, which is of course what happens at every general election.🤐 Jerry

For over 30 years I worked and lived in what you might describe as a “dispossessed working class” community, albeit in the South Wales valleys, and a strongly labour voting constituency and leave voting . I drank in the local pubs and my best mates included a plasterer, postman and power station worker. Europe was a frequent topic of conversation , often heated, but generally in negative terms for many of the reasons outlined above. When it came to the referendum I never once heard the view expressed that they would vote to “thumb their noses” etc, and I suspect they would be insulted to be told that was their motivation. You seem to deny the “working classes” the ability to come to the same reasoned decisions with the same access to media as the rest of us, which ever way the individual verdict was. It seems a popular remainer conception that the outcome of the referendum was determined by a protest vote by the ignorant, despite the “working classes” having exactly the same average IQ as the rest of the population. And in terms of sovereignty, I said “issues of national sovereignty “, I did not say lost sovereignty, though we have undoubtedly become subservient to the European Court and to a significant extent to the European Parliament, two of the main pillars that determine self determination. Jerry

But why put it off? Cameron was on a high, having just had a reasonable victory in the General Election. He , like most cosmopolitan south easterners, had no concept of the dissatisfaction of the majority with the machinations of the EU and despite having just been shafted in his attempt to get concessions from the EU he had put a gloss on the outcome that he thought the population would swallow. There did not seem to be any advantage in delaying, and nor would there have been. The target of settling the EU issue within his party was understandably irresistible. And the chattering and political classes knew a remain victory was inevitable. What he, like many, did not realise is that national wealth and economic success is less important to the psyche of most of the population of the country than perceptions of housing and work competition from working class Eastern European immigration. Almost un-mentioned in the debate also were issues of national sovereignty, self determination and democracy which in the absence of the concern for the international economic arguments are felt very strongly amongst rural and working class communities. I think that despite the parliamentary debacle very little has changed, the polls give a remain majority of exactly the same level as the day before the referendum (10% according to the net) and we know where that led us. Cameron did not have a crystal ball (or possibly any balls at all as it turned out) but his decision will have seemed entirely logical. Jerry

True, but the latter made most of their millions from the private sector. Mr Kinnock left his job as an MP to jump on the EU gravy train (joining wife and son, as stated) and was soon owning million pound properties courtesy of the taxpayer. https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/campaign-highlights-kinnocks-10m-eu-2100178 He was even the subject of this article in Walesonline, the on-line presence of the left leaning Western Mail newspaper in 2009. Can’t really blame him though, he and his family only took advantage of the system, but it is difficult to see how all three ended up with top EU jobs without some behind the scenes influence. To be fair Kinnock in private was a likeable man; as leader, he once spent an afternoon in our practice along with our then MP ‘Pink’ Paul Murphy, on a ‘fact finding’ exercise. He didn’t learn much from me. But he did strike us with his ability to listen, humour and sensible open discussion. Not like the pontificating windbag he came across as in public. Jerry

I see, I mostly use an iPad, and you can enlarge the pics and clear the thumbnails. I will try my pc later. Jerry

Yes, this new style of thumbnail seems to have appeared in the last few days, you can still enlarge to get the full picture but it is a pain if you just want to scan the lists. Jerry

There is one issue in replying the way Peckris does, and that is if you try to respond by quoting the annotations, you find you are quoting a blank page. I appreciate there are “copy and paste” ways around this, but from a simple quote and reply point of view it is a nifty way to end the conversation. Jerry

But our discharge of the ‘Sick man of Europe’ tag was very little to do with membership of the EEC and everything to do with nearly two decades of Conservative government under Mrs T and Major, following a decade of largely inept government (of both colours) which allowed unregulated and strongly left wing unions to cause disruption throughout manufacturing and other industries in their efforts to prevent modernisation and efficiency savings which might just have allowed said industries to remain competitive. As a result we lost most to other countries which had modernised. It certainly took over a decade for the country to re-focus, primarily on the service sector where we are now. And I can remember inflation peaking at 15% in 1992, after nearly 20 years of membership, during the ERM debacle when the main though not only factor that triggered the instability with regard to the agreed parameters was high German interest rates caused by the costs of German reunification . Britain was not the only country affected, and 10 months later European monetary policy rules were relaxed; I suppose the point I am trying to make is that membership of the EU is not and will never be a financial panacea, there is too much regional disparity even within the Eurozone, and the situation with Spain, Italy and Greece is far from resolved. It is true that the EU would not be unhappy if we exercised our right to rescind article 50, but for our parliament to override the democratically expressed wish of the population is unlikely and highly risky. And the EU have made it clear that a no deal may be preferable to them than further years of indecision. Jerry

Sounds like Corbyn too, though then you can add in misogynist and anti Semitic as a minimum. And how could he walk out of the discussion this evening because Chuka Umunna was there? None of our politicians come out of this with much credit, except that May has been steadfast in her determination to follow through what she reasonably feels is the will of the majority which is the job she is there for, while dissenters do their best to obfuscate that democratically expressed choice. The way things look tonight parliament will have to support her deal or in effect vote for no deal, the other two alternatives appear increasingly unlikely given previous votes in parliament, the timescale and the determination by the EU to force a decision. I have rather enjoyed all these twists and turns over the last few months, but it does have to reach a conclusion now so that the nation can move forward. Jerry

This will be the very rare obverse F with the lcw below shield and pointed top lighthouse then........ https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Victoria-1861-Penny-4-F-RARE/333120920754?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 I am watching it just to see if anybody falls for it. Apart from all the ‘wrong uns’ EBay is rather quiet at the moment. Jerry

I tend to follow this ‘poll of polls’ which tracks polls throughout Europe. https://pollofpolls.eu/GB But take all polls with a pinch of salt. Don’t forget that the last poll released before the 2016 referendum gave ‘Remain’ a near 10% lead. Jerry

This coin with the same story was for sale on EBay several times a couple of years ago, and featured on this site. It subsequently appeared with hype for sale via a conventional South Wales auction house (Dragon Auctions, or some similar name). After I sent them links to his EBay sale attempts, and to discussion on this forum , they sent me a pleasant email and withdrew the coin from sale. The story is of course total tosh, it is a modern Chinese replica, though he possibly paid too much for it himself if he did indeed buy it in Caerphilly and was taken in by the vendors stated provenance. Jerry

It appears to have a core exposed in places which is subject to bronze disease, therefore a copper alloy. I wonder if (in common with many contemporary denarius forgeries) it is made from a high tin bronze, possibly the surface tin enriched by copper leaching. High tin bronze looks passably silver when polished. I have previously found forgery denarii of very similar appearance, and suspect this is a late Mediaeval equivalent , being a copy of a groat or half groat. Tin plating on copper alloy is another possibility. It does not look modern to me. Jerry

I see it is “already marked as a red hot collectible”. Every opportunity to get your fingers burned then. Jerry

That’s a blow, is the “details” statement justified in the hand? If not, break it out! I would not want a handsome coin condemned in print by somebody else’s opinion! And paying for the privilege! One more reason I would not use TPG’s. Jerry

True, the serif does very much look like an afterthought especially in the second and third versions shown. The serif in the first image does look far more conventional. I wonder whether there was ever a ‘no serif’ die. Jerry

The fact that there are three subtlety different ‘open three’’s in 1863 would suggest that this was a deliberate experiment and not a one-off mistake, though I cannot tie it in with the 1903. I suppose it could have been an alternative way of marking individual dies, more subtle than die numbers in what clearly was a year for study/experimentation. But I am not aware of any serious study on the topic. Jerry

There seems to be a never ending supply of this sort of bollox on EBay. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/RAREST-VALUABLE-one-of-a-kind-1971-1p-Penny-THE-VALENTINE-FRANKEN-PENNY/192837875655?hash=item2ce60877c7:g:6XIAAOSw78xcZaZH Another example of tape and acid dip. I am surprised he’s not also referring to it being an ultra rare ‘NEW PENNY’ 1971 coin as well. Jerry

You’re like the genie from the lamp! Nice to hear from you, hope all is well in Oz. You have my best mate and his wife over there somewhere at the moment, so be very careful in traffic or crossing the road, especially after the bars are open! Jerry

It is also I suspect a fake. It has the tiny rim nick above the trefoil after GRATIA that seems diagnostic. https://www.coincommunity.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=146846 And I think other features. Of course this was always the likely option, how would a girl who works in Greggs and can’t get a loan be in possession of a genuine Gothic Crown? And the toning is deeply suspicious. Jerry

It reads Maximinus, the emperor Maximian, very similar to this one on EBay, but of the Sisca mint I think. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/372111800526?ul_ref=http%3A%2F%2Frover.ebay.com%2Frover%2F1%2F710-53481-19255-0%2F1%3Ficep_ff3%3D2%26pub%3D5574660663%26toolid%3D10001%26campid%3D5336443428%26customid%3Ddms_71347%26icep_item%3D372111800526%26icep_catId%3D4734%26ipn%3Dpsmain%26icep_vectorid%3D229508%26kwid%3D902099%26mtid%3D824%26kw%3Dlg%26srcrot%3D710-53481-19255-0%26rvr_id%3D1853282496071%26rvr_ts%3Dd8520ace1680a99b8865791efff28c19&ul_noapp=true It looks perfectly genuine to me, lovely surfaces like coins I have found in the mud of the Severn estuary. Jerry

The real Royal Mint mistake here is to assume the population has any common sense whatsoever! https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Royal-Mint-Mistake-New-1-Penny/132934242203?hash=item1ef37f8f9b:g:cFsAAOSwXh9cUHo- Jerry