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I agree it's not a bad shout Richard (and Jerry). Below are the 1858/7 variations in my own collection, so there are lots of opportunities for protrusions all over the place if some of those dies are then struck with a 9 as well.

I agree Richard. The 1858/6 has the smaller numeral 5 font, but all other 1858 overdates have the 5 font which you reference as 'classic' in your first picture above. The only other years which also use that 'classic 5' font are 1856 (some PT's), 1857, 1858 and 1859. It is difficult to see, therefore, how an 1854/3 (which does of course exist), can then become an 1858/4/3, when none of the 4 different 5 fonts used in 1853 are this 'classic 5' style.

Yes, this was something I mentioned a couple of years back on 'more pennies'. I'm not at all confident about it being a '4' though, and still regard some of the overdates on these 1858 pennies as a bit of a mystery, especially the one that is found paired with the large rose reverse...........that can also be seen on the following link:- 1858/3 Penny - Page 3 - British Coin Related Discussions & Enquiries - British Coin Forum - Predecimal.com

.....and there is also this diagonal line, highlighted red

Gary has now written to me and advised that the top image is 8th edition in 1975, and bottom image is 9th edition in 1982. Bressett had 1858/6 as 'Rare' in 1975; I'm thinking that its first appearance must have been before that, in 5th to 7th editions. Thanks to Gary for the additional information, also interesting to see some of the $ movements in those seven years e.g. the 1860/59

Presumably Bressett Richard (as $ are used), but did Gary say which editions? I see the pages have different information, so must be two different ones.

Indeed Peckris, although I think I probably won't lose any money when I sell the coin, fingers crossed. Then I would have a free letter, which is the bit I wanted anyway. Thanks for looking at the 4th edition Rob, just need to find someone with 5th edition or later!

I bought an 1858/6 during the week, mainly because of the accompanying note written by Charles Wilson Peck, which I found quite interesting. Members will know that the 1858/6 was neither recorded by Bramah (1929), or Peck (1964). It is a reasonably difficult coin to find, particularly in a better grade, but I have always found it rather surprising that neither of these authors recorded this variety. I do not regard it as very rare, and it is also a fairly obvious type once you see one ‘in the hand’. Anyway, the letter from Peck (which I bought with the coin) was as attached, with my own yellow highlighting now added. You will note that the letter is dated Nov’66, which is just over a year before Peck passed away, in April 1968. Fortunately, I was also able to contact the seller of the coin, through ebay, and he replied as follows:- “the coin had been in my possession since I bought it in 1966. It wasn’t listed as an overstrike but I noticed it and had it confirmed by Peck who was the leading authority of English copper at the time." I think this letter is a nice bit of history, and it also contains a couple of interesting comments, for example Peck’s thoughts on minor date widths. I found it particularly interesting that he mentioned someone called Bressett, a name which I had not come across before. I now see that the American author, Kenneth Bressett wrote several editions of a book called ‘A Guide to English Coins’, starting in the early 1960’s (Peck was aware of the contents of the first edition). This made me wonder if I could find the edition in which he may have first recorded the 1858/6. If anyone reading this has a later edition then perhaps you wouldn’t mind looking to see if the 1858/6 penny has been noted. P.S. £10 in 1966 is now worth £230!

A recent find, now on Richard's site as the 8th known example. As I already have a better example I will be selling this piece; if any member is interested please PM me with a sensible offer. It is a little better than Example 7 (which was also my coin), and definitely better than Example 5, both of which were sold for £160.

A young Scouse woman was so depressed that she decided to throw herself into the Mersey. However, a handsome young man just managed to stop her in the nick of time. "You have so much to live for," said the man. "I'm a sailor and we are off to Australia tomorrow. I can stow you away on my ship. I'll take care of you, bring you food every day and keep you happy." With nothing to lose, and the prospect of going to Australia, the woman accepted. That night the sailor brought her aboard and hid her in a small, but comfortable, compartment in the hold. From then on every night he would bring her three sandwiches, a bottle of red wine and make love to her until dawn. Two weeks later she was discovered by the captain during a routine inspection. "What are you doing here?" asked the captain. "I have an arrangement with one of the sailors," she replied. "He brings me food, and I get a free trip to Australia". "I see," said the captain. Her conscience then got the better of her and she added, "plus, he's screwing me". "He certainly is," replied the captain. "This is the Birkenhead ferry."

......and this is what it used to look like over 10 years ago

Sad day for me yesterday, seeing my lovely Cherry tree like this! 😭 It was a mature tree over 40 years ago when we moved in, but now seen it's day, and had to go before it dropped on someone's head.

Does anyone know if Mike Hopkins is ok? He used to post several times a week, but I haven't seen a single post from him now for several weeks. Thanks

I guess if it was his daughter then "she would be walking out the door like she did one thousand times before. Don’t you love her ways, tell me what you say”

Hi Mike, that coin has been sold twice before on ebay in the past 3 months, and by same seller..... previously for over £300 on both occasions. Just a word of warning if you actually bought it, that maybe it won't look so good 'in the hand'. I could be totally wrong, but did think strange that it has been returned twice already.

I see that someone got 'suckered' into buying this, it's a 😭shame! 1856 Queen Victoria Copper Penny. High Grade. | eBay

I have had one of these for donkeys years, but never really look at it so thought I would sell on. This is an old book, and with exactly the same cover as the one which can be found on this link. The Coinage of the British Empire: An Outline of the Progress of the Coinage in Great Britain and Her Dependencies, from the Earliest Period to the Present Time by Humphreys, Henry Noel: Good Hard Cover (1861) Third Edition. | The Armadillo's Pillow (abebooks.co.uk) I don't need anything like the amount AbeBooks are asking, so a sensible offer from a member would probably be acceptable.......... if anyone is interested. Please PM me if you want it, and I can then send pictures to show condition, not dissimilar to the one in the link.

Hi Mike, I let the book go for £80 as was a previous customer, he also took the 1854/3. You are right about the 1853PT with italic date obverse, very difficult one, but not widely recognised. No one seems interested in that as I don't even have 1 watcher! Did you see the 1862 F38 which came onto ebay last night on an auction? I looked again this morning and someone had already snaffled it on a Buy it Now for £55.......at 2.46 in the morning would you believe? 😳😜

Bramah book and 1854/3 penny have now been sold. Still have 1854 No colons and 1853PT with Italic date available

Just put my spare copy of this on ebay if anyone is interested. Also a couple of difficult Victorian copper penny varieties

This discussion has prompted me to take digital pictures of the various numeral 9’s on my own 1859’s, and I now show some of these below. The pictures were all taken at 140x magnification by sliding next coin under the microscope without changing settings. These are all decent grade coins so I don’t think that ‘flattening’ through wear will have made much difference to the measurements which I have given. I have only taken measurements of the lengths, as width measurements would have made the pictures too busy, and I think one can see the width variations without needing to have their measurements. We all knew that Gouby B has a visibly different smaller 9, so no great surprise on that one, but I think there are a couple of other interesting things:- The 9 (top right), which has been the subject of this discussion, is indeed narrower (in itself) than the other type of 9’s. So, in addition to being the narrowest date width of all 1859’s (at 9 teeth) it could also be thought of as a ‘narrow date’ type based upon the width of the 9 itself. Note that this 9 also has other distinguishing features e.g. shape of its tail. The surprising one for me is that I now believe that the numeral 9 on Gouby Date Style Ab is slightly different to that on Gouby Aa. In addition to the measurement difference, I think that the area within the top loop also seems more circular on Ab. You will see that I have drawn in a blue arrow to highlight a protrusion bottom right, this can be checked against the picture on MG’s website to verify that this is the exact same die which he references. CP 1859 date varieties (michael-coins.co.uk) P.S. My experience is that Gouby Aa is by far the most common type for 1859, and I have this morning taken measurements of several other Aa coins, all coming in at 1.62mm, albeit with varying amounts of doubled numerals. I can also show these pictures if anyone wishes to see them.

Richard / Jerry, Yes, I am sure you are correct in that this flaw is a unique identifier of type. I have owned 6 examples over the years and all have had this flaw at front of truncation. The flaw progresses, on later strikes, right through the base of the truncation and then down to a border tooth at the back of Victoria. This die also has another progressive flaw through the VICTORIA legend; the attached pictures refer. I am, therefore, almost certain that the numeral 9 which we have been discussing only appears on a single obverse die.

Yes, that's the narrow 9 date style Mike, and a nice looking example too, well done 👍

Yes, not easy to find those Richard. The Gouby Date Style A variations are far more common than either of the 9 fonts in my picture which you have shown above. The style that I called 'New Style X / Narrow 9' is also a perfect fit with the protrusions that can be seen on the 1860/59, see picture now attached. When I described it as 'narrow' it was because the entire date is only 9 teeth wide, which is less than all style A variations I have ever seen, and also half a tooth narrower than Gouby Style B (with the smaller numeral 9). I wasn't meaning that the numeral 9 is narrow in itself!! Hope that makes sense. It's another year that I must try to do some stats on from my 5-year ebay study. Problem is my wife keeps wanting holidays! 😉

I'm inclined to agree Richard. I think I have a couple of irregular shaped 'extra metal' pieces myself, will check when I'm back home.