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Thanks for the replies, Terry's 'second' piece seems to confirm that the protrusion was introduced at minting. The H's on 1882's and 1881's seem to be found in many slightly different locations, and also varying sizes. Below is an example of a smaller, much lower, and also repaired H on the common 1882 variety. I guess it's not inconceivable that the protrusion on the La was from an earlier underneath H, although it does seem to be very high and quite a 'miss' from the intended spot. Does anyone have an example of a complete 'high' H where the top is level with half way up the bottom loops of the 8's?

Not the best of pieces but looks like there is a protrusion above the H on this Gouby 1882La (R + p) penny. Anyone seen this on their own higher grade example / have any idea what it may be? Don't think I'm imagining!

Thanks for the pictures Richard. It looks like this coin is a die pairing I do not have. I wonder how many obverse and reverse dies were actually used in 1841. I believe there were something over 900,000 pennies struck bearing this date, and seem to remember that someone with more knowledge of minting than me advised probably around 50,000 could be struck from a single die. If that is the case I may have examples of only half of these in my own collection. Can any other members offer thoughts on this please?

Hi Richard, please could you send full pictures of this 1841 so I can check if it matches one of my existing no REG colon pieces? If your images are too big for Predecimal please email them to me if possible. Many thanks, Ian

Many thanks Terry, I had wondered whether you were teasing me. So your reverse is a 2nd one paired with the wide date obverse. The protrusion which you show to the RHS of the second A of BRITANNIAR is a good indicator to help me find one of these for my own collection. Such a protrusion is often seen the LHS but I think rarely to the right, at least on 1841's. While we are on the subject of 1841 pennies here are some different numeral fonts I have observed

Thanks for the confirmation that your coin has the same obverse features as my own Terry. That being the case I would then expect the reverse of your coin may be the difficult Bramah 2c with the serious repair to the F of DEF (see attachment). That pairing is the one I have in my own collection. It is not 100% certain though, as you may clearly have a coin with the same obverse as mine, but paired with yet another reverse die. Please can I ask for your further confirmation one way or the other? Cheers, Ian

Hi Terry, as my picture with all the 1841 date variations was low definition I attach a single picture of the widest date I have seen, the one at the bottom. If your coin is an exact match then I am expecting that it will also have a VICTORIA C with the small protrusions at the top as seen in my second attachment. Do you have the facilities to check and advise please? Many thanks, Ian

Hi Terry, thanks for your input. Yes, agree your 1841 REG: must be an earlier strike with flaws just commencing. To date I have found 9 different 1841 obverse dies, best illustrated by their date style differences, which I do not believe anyone has yet tried to document. I have attached a further picture showing these 9 different date types although I have had to reduce from over 3MB to less than 500Kb to get onto the Predecimal system, so the differences are not as easy to see as would be the case with higher definition. I have ordered these, top to bottom, as narrowest (Date 1) to widest (Date 9) and you can see I have shown Date 5 twice as this is the REG: obverse type with or without the flaw through the date. Date 7 by the way is Bramahs rare 2a variety. Also, the dates / obverses which I have named as Date 6 and Date 9 are two different obverses which are both seen paired with the Bramah 2c variety (repair to the F of DEF). I do find it interesting to use flaws and other 'tell-tale' features to plot a timeline of how dies have been paired, but guess that's serious anorak stuff for most! If anyone wishes to have sight of the 3MB image with these 9 dates then please contact me and I will also be happy to describe the differences if anyone is struggling to see them.

......and the promised full pictures of my 1841 penny with obverse flaws further developed...

A few years ago I saw something of interest on an 1841 Victorian Penny. Recently I was able to purchase a high grade example with these features of interest, and this now enables me to properly share my find with other collectors of this series. Collectors will know that there are two currency varieties documented for this year, the common type without a colon after REG, and the much rarer type with a colon after REG. When I document coins for my collection I always take note of any unusual features. In particular I note the presence of any die flaws and, with additional specimens, how these flaws may develop as a given die ages. It was by studying such flaws that I discovered that the single obverse die which was paired with the rare 1841 REG: penny was subsequently paired with a reverse die which does not have a colon after REG The combined pictures below show the exact same obverse flaws present with both types of reverse die, the flaw through VICTORIA being more developed, as expected, on the coin without the REG colon. I have examined 17 examples of the REG: variety and only seen these flaws on 3 pieces, suggesting that these are ‘late strikes’ and the obverse die deteriorated quite late in life when paired with the REG: reverse. Also, I do not think this same obverse die was used for very long paired with the REG no colon reverse. I have only seen two examples, although I do not spend time specifically searching for more specimens. For reference, I will follow with an additional post showing full pictures of my 1841 penny without the REG colon. Full pictures of a flawed REG: specimen can be seen on the following link, or by examining the example on Richard’s English Pennies website, should you have access. 1841 (A + a) and 1841 (B + a)?…..lots more work to be done http://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&auc=142&searchlot=2621&searchtype=2

It is also interesting that the exact same 'dot' obverse seems to have been paired with an OT reverse. Close examination of the location of the date numerals, in particular the protrusion top left of the 5 which appears to be part of an underneath 5, give me confidence that I have correctly identified this to be the case..........date picture attached for information...........which appears to be a slight variation of Gouby Style Ab.

Pete / Richard, the dot between the I and A of GRATIA has always been present on all 3 examples of this PT italic 5 type which I have ever owned. Attached are pictures of the example retained in my own collection.

I sold that one several months back Pete, the only other one I have is the one I have just pictured and posted this morning on the 'More Pennies' thread, illustrating the teeth count differences between high tide and normal tide (173 compared to 163) as perhaps an alternative method for differentiating between the two types where one is uncertain of the other features.

.....or if you are an avid tooth counter like some on this site, and cannot be sure about where your 'P' is pointing , then try the counting teeth method. The high tide reverse has 173 border teeth whereas the normal 1897 has 10 teeth fewer, so even allowing for a few teeth which may be difficult to see there is still a decent margin for counting errors. Attached images refer

Fixed

Really love the golden lustre!

That's nice Pete, looks like large date numerals so guessing paired with plain trident, can you confirm plz? I'm still looking for a high grade 1856OT for my own collection.

Thank you Michael, it's yours.

I have a better spare one of these for sale, but need a net £100. Save me bothering with ebay when the clocks go back if anyone is interested.

Yes that's him Pete, well remembered, not so daft. Remember you are a Luminary Poster so you know far more than a Junior Member like me.

The 1898B was also mentioned in the LCA March thread earlier this year, and I posted reference pictures:- I always check for type B when I see an 1898, and I think they are much rarer than a 1 in 14 chance. I do know a collector who put one of these (think EF+ / aUNC) on ebay about a year ago for £400 BIN. He was offered £250 which he didn't accept. Not sure if he still has it, but could ask if anyone wants.

Will do, of course, Richard, and thanks for the comment. I have one in at least GVF, previously shown on this forum, but was surprised to see this one from a dealer who specializes in bronze. I had to look at an 1875 narrow date as well to confirm my thoughts, but was safe in the knowledge that it was an improvement on my 'normal' F72 anyway, so not a massive risk. A good loupe is needed with this variety. Give me a day or two, must add my F21 to your list, will check for others. Jerry Annoyingly that F72 was sold at Hanson’s on 22nd August Lot 116 for its low estimate of £50. I bid on it through Saleroom and had a message returned saying I was the highest bidder only for the auctioneer to not accept my bid even though I am pretty sure she saw it on her screen. I had the video link on and had been watching closely for over an hour to make sure I got my bid in……….pain in the ass but at least pleased it finished up with a serious penny collector like Jerry. https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/hansons/catalogue-id-hanson10084/lot-31ad4583-9aef-4eec-ad9f-a65f0106050a

....and both are 1940's by the way

I attach some exergue line pictures which I believe confirm what Richard has posted, one attached to this post and another to follow on immediately, both from UNC pieces.

Thanks for your comments Jerry. I have just examined all of my pieces in the 1841 to 1849 date range. In my own collection I have 14 coins in the 1841-43 range, all of which have the complete upward tail on the 4’s. As mentioned earlier I have 11 x 1844 of which 4 have complete upward tail and 7 have the plain type I pictured earlier. In the 1845 to 1849 range I have 35 pieces, covering all documented varieties, and it would seem that they all have plain tails to their 4’s, but like the 1844’s they all do seem to have a part of a broken upward tail, to a greater or lesser. I can add some example pictures if anyone wishes to see. So to try to answer your question, ‘yes’ I think there is clear evidence over the period 1845-49 of defective punches being used on all dates. Also, I have never myself seen a complete upward tail on a penny in this date range, so ‘no’ I do not think the complete upper serif returns at some point. It is beginning to look to me like the year 1844 was a transition year after which no puncheons remained which had the complete upward tail, and that the broken punches were then subsequently used throughout the 1840’s. I am, however, not an expert on actual events which could have taken place within the Royal Mint, so wonder whether other members may be able to make better comments. What is the likelihood of several numeral 4 puncheons being made around 1840/1 and then being used throughout the entire 1840-49 date range, with no further puncheons being produced i.e. an acceptance by the RM that the original number 4 puncheons were still satisfactory for years 1844 onwards once they started to break? The cross bar 1854 does not come into this!