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Jerry, as you seem to have the best 145 example are you planning to put alongside a normal Obverse 2 (143), and do a careful analysis just to see if there are any other undocumented differences in addition to the legend ones already noted? Thanks, Ian

There was one sold on ebay back in February by ribs18 from the Netherlands, but I think that may be the same coin which Terry has pictured. Re. the straw poll I have checked around 20 of my sold pieces this morning and none had 145 teeth. Also the 1861 Obverse 2's (F18 and F20) have 143 teeth but I do not have an F19 to check.....sure I can find that on Richard's site when get time to look!.

My final picture has been done with the aid of a graphic designer colleague by combining the 60/59 date with the 59 narrow date………. a 50% transparency of the 60/59 picture has been positioned (using those 3 protrusions as reference points) on top of a 50% transparency of the 59 narrow date. I do not know whether this has been done before and I may be repeating what others already know. Anyway I feel that my results look fairly conclusive, and would welcome comments. Thank you for bearing with me, and apologies for hogging the site for a while!!

.....and the protrusions highlighted which I mentioned

Using exactly the same microscope setting of 130x I have taken shots of my two 1859 smaller numeral varieties and attach these as a combined picture, along with the 60/59 date inserted between them for comparison. You will see the Gouby B date style type at the top; the bottom variety is not currently documented by him, but seen from time to time. When I looked at these 3 pictures side by side I felt that the bottom variety (which I call the narrow date) was a strong candidate for being overstruck with the 60, to create the 60/59 variety. You will notice that there are 3 good protrusions on the 60/59 which could be used to triangulate over the 59 narrow date………..these protrusions are highlighted in red arrows on the next attachment which I am about to post.

....and the 60/59 date close up

Returning to the 1860/59 discussion, attached my latest acquisition, also a digital microscope 130x close up of the over-date, following as a separate posting due to the 500Kb attachment limit.

Got it........awkward reducing file sizes to fit 500KB!

Still trying to get the hang of adding pictures, which will follow soon!

Bought this at Spinks last week because thought may be a 'flying ship', and now examined it does seem to be that way i.e. lustre around the ship and then again beneath but above the waves seems to highlight it's flight! Also interesting obverse, think Gouby R as has re-cut fish, and score above LCWYON, but not sure about small tuft of hair (stage 7) and re-cut plaited hair (8) because 7 seems to be present, but 8 doesn't (Gouby S?). Also the obverse colon dots seem quite interesting as have had some work. Any thoughts please?

Thanks everyone, after nearly 10 years I was ready to crack this one open, but now it's back in the safe. Would still be good to know if any member actually has a piece with same dot, so if anyone happens to read this in years to come and has one of these coins then do please let me know. Just realising it's good to have a site like this to share views, will try to make more use and contribute in the future. P.S. There is a 60/59 on ebay.com at the moment, NGC AU58, but at £3,700 it seems too much to me, although I see he's taking offers.

I have an 1846 DEF Close Colon which is slabbed and graded PCGS MS63. I have been wondering whether to de-slab this piece so that I may check out what appears to be a small dot to the RHS of the T of GRATIA. I think the dot is actually on the coin rather than the slab, but cannot be certain without checking once out. If the dot is on the coin then I will be keeping it in my collection, but selling if it is on the slab because I do have a higher grade piece. I’m thinking, however, that by de-slabbing I may reduce the value when selling so just thought before doing so whether any forum member may be able to help by advising if they already have a piece with dot in same location. I have owned and seen many examples of this rarer type but never noticed this dot before. If anyone wishes me to add a picture of the reverse please let me know. Thanks all

Many thanks Pete, I may actually sell (or swap) the F27 because I have this rare reverse in better grade, albeit on an F32 (pictures attached for further drooling), and I concentrate my collection on Victorian Copper Pennies rather than Bronze. The F32 may also be the best known, but dare I say that.....lol?

Thanks for reply Rob, appreciated. Also the warm welcome from Pete, are you the guy who bought some coins from me for your son's starter collection, sorry to ask but don't know you as PWA 1967?

First posting on Predecimal; so hope I have done this right! Thinning down collection over the winter, including some Cartwheel pennies which is not really an area I collect. Came across this one and struggling to identify variety. Can see something in Peck about a proof reverse having detached leaves on olive- branch also weak rigging and sea beneath ship. Have I really got a proof coin here or are these features also present on currency dies as well? Coin is in good condition so think these weak areas must have been present when originally minted. Thanks to anyone who has better expertise of 1797's and able to shed some light. P.S. Can take more pictures if helps!