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Here's my F111 example, Gouby Kb for comparison. Clearly much easier to spot than the F114 (Ma)

Hi Mike, the F114 is sometimes seen with 2/1, but it is less obvious than on the F111. On Gouby Page 79, his 1882Ma, he says "The only part of the 1 that can be seen, on this example, is the small portion that sticks, centrally, half way up the 2" On more than one occasion I have also seen a tiny additional protrusion to the top left hand side of the numeral 2, which I think is most likely the top left corner of the top bar of the underneath numeral 1. I feel that this may be an even better indicator of this variety than the protrusion on the inner curve.....which always seems to be weak to the point of doubting the variety. When one considers the combination of these two tiny protrusions I think that gives increased confidence in confirming type. Here is a picture of my own specimen for illustration

Here's two dates on F25's, neither quite as weird as Terry's example.

Excellent example Terry, and agree with you that this is extreme enough to be interesting and more desirable to collectors than most date width varieties. The 1889 Wide Date, pictured below, is another more extreme example. It is also rarer and more desirable than the 1889 Gouby B Narrow Date, which is itself quite sought after.

True, but the 1898 Old Head is probably worthy of a bit more discussion as the final 8 is sometimes seen with the 'bisect' font which was NEVER used on any other OH year, and ALWAYS used on Victorian BUN Head pennies...……..so to see multiple 'bisect' dies, i.e. Gouby's 1898B, and the suggested new type 1898Ba (both with this much rarer font) I think is of interest. Also, MG thought that date width variations warranted more general recording in his 2009 book, and many collectors now use that as their main point of reference.

Bought this one on ebay in 2006, marked it up as unusual 8 and put in storage. When MG's book came out in 2009 I re-categorised as his type B and made a note that date wasn't as wide as in his book, and that I should write to him to advise. I then forgot about that until now...…………..brain's going, thank goodness for Pete!

You got some nice pieces there Jerry. Think I was the under bidder on this 1875H, which was being sold as a likely forgery...…….but it looked bona fide to me too!

I see that you sold your 1861 F33 1/1 on ebay yesterday for what looks like a good price to me...………….and I think more than you would have achieved had it not been an overdate. Were you pleased? I found this F33 proof with similar, but not same, overdate to yours.

Whilst not disagreeing with Chris and Mike, I suspect that if the type which Gouby describes on his Page 42 as BP 1861 Ka (J + d) is found for sale then this would attract a premium...………….because he has documented it. This is the type with first strike to the left, which he felt worthy of giving a suffix a. Known 2+ and Best VF+. I'm also thinking that the types with 1's below and above,, which are pictured above, one could reasonably expect to find someone willing to pay a small premium, say around 20%. I also have experience of selling 1862/2's which have sold for more than I would have normally expected if they had no underneath 2.

Hi, I have seen that a couple of times before, also seen 1 over lower 1 on both F33 and F29. I believe there are also several examples of 'earlier' 1's to both left and right hand side My example of F33, 1 over lower 1:-

and 4 more pictures:-

I was reminded earlier this week by a member of the forum of an exercise I did some years ago regarding the 1797 George III currency penny. I thought I would add some of those findings to the forum as some other members may also find of interest. Over the years I amassed quite a number of pieces so that I may check the variations in the ship design on the reverse. On Page 306 of Peck, with reference to the reverse paired with the 10 leaf obverse he says:- “Ship with 6 incuse gunports, and an ensign at the stern, but there are numerous variations in the design of the ship, the arrangement of the rigging, and the rendering of the sea. The waves are usually not crested with foam”. Then on Page 307, reference the reverse paired with the 11 leaf obverse he says …….“the varieties of the ship are less numerous” Once I owned a digital microscope I was able to examine these variations in more detail, and take pictures of the ship and waves on each of my pieces to the same scale. As a result I was able to log 40 different varieties of ship design on 1797 pennies which have the 10 leaf obverse, and a further 7 different ships on the 11 leaf obverse variety. No doubt there are a few additional ship designs which I did not have in my collection. My findings definitely seem to confirm what Peck documented, and I thought it may be of interest to some if I showed some of the more obvious differences in these ship and wave designs. I have scaled these pictures down to meet the 500Kb limit on forum postings, but if anyone wants full size then please PM me. I guess the die makers had some fun with this!

Mike, I wasn't far away from you back on 11th August 1999. I was at the castle on the head at St. Mawes. It was a beautiful clear day on 10th August so a pity it clouded over on the 11th, but it was nevertheless quite an experience.....especially listening to the birds rushing back up the estuary to roost in the middle of the day! As far as 12th August 2026 is concerned, if you are not shooting grouse, then I would suggest Palma Majorca (or nearby) may be a better option than Iceland. It will be a total eclipse, albeit not for very long, and you can have a G&T whilst watching early evening before dinner......very civilised. The 2nd August 2027 (my wedding anniversary) could be even better in Southern Spain. Easy flights to Malaga and I reckon there's no better place to be than the Parador at Ronda, brilliant place with excellent views...……. not on the central eclipse line but still just over a minute of totality.

The border teeth die clashes do sometimes appear in some unusual places. I have found the one pictured below on two 1860 F16 pieces in exactly the same location. I have used the gradual transparency technique in the second set of pictures to demonstrate the clash.

Was discussed on Page 81 of 'More Pennies' Mike. Terry has one just the same; Rob seemed to think part of an H. Think your memory starting to fail you...….welcome to the club lol

Sorry to hear of your experience Mike. If you are looking for an F114 upgrade then may be worth trying to find one with the added feature of the protrusion from the H as per below.

…………….but did you notice that my last 3 sentences have either begun with 'so' or 'well'?

Well, on closer inspection there are actually two reverse die cracks at the rim, the one Mike noticed after the O of ONE, and an even more obvious one to the right of the date. Well spotted Mike!

So er yeh, may have to do that! 😁

Did cross my mind to keep it Mike, but think I need to start being a bit more ruthless with spares. I have an F73 which is about on a par with this, but also has a repaired 7...….so thinking will probably hang on to that one instead.,

My gut feel is that Pete's correct though.... Having said that, I think that 15 or so years ago there were quite a lot of 1858 Bramah 26a's Missing Serifs around, but I'm sure one doesn''t see so many nowadays....probably because Bramah has been discussed on forums such as this since then and people became more away of the variety and collected them....now tucked away in collections. I have a spare of the Bramah book if anyone is interested, quite a nice copy...….but they don't come cheap, quite collectable in themselves! PM me if interested.

I could conceivably do some stats on this, because I have images of all Victorian Copper Pennies listed on ebay for a 5 year period, and before the Large Rose and F/B were known about by hardly any collectors. Problem is that there's well over 3000 images to check through, breaking down first into ww and no ww and then lower levels. I was leaving 1858 to nearer the end of this project.

Here are the pictures of that 1874 Mike. It is an attractive coin, and the fields do look unusually smooth. The rims on both sides seem to be constantly around 0.8mm according to my microscope......which I think is probably normal. I believe that quite a few Heaton coins are considered to be specimens, struck from polished blanks to give a better strike to show off the detail. Any thoughts from other members on this coin please...…………….not sure I will keep it if considered just an F73, not an F74?