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Hi Martin, Thanks for that, and your question. I was just about to reply to Mike to say that the % may be a little higher then 0.54%. I am sure that the 13 are all different examples. You can always find other unique markings on coins to check on this. The only one listed twice was the first one in 2006 which I mentioned above. So result was 13, not 14. However, some of the other 1858's in the sample of 2400'ish will have been double counted. I cannot possibly check for every instance of listing same coins. Apart from the fact that some pictures are really poor, when coins swap hands and are re-listed by a different seller then the pictures always change significantly. If I were to give it a best guess I would say that discounting relist of same coins over the period then the total population may go down by a couple of hundred, but I think would still be over 2000. Hope this helps. I have pictures of all 13 large roses if anyone wishes to see any other examples. My small date, which I pictured earlier, I bought on ebay for £23 in March 2009. Here are the ebay actual pictures. P.S. I now know who Rashenley is!

Found it : Auction 137, 3/6/12, Lot 478. Sold for £600. The diagnostic feature of the genuinely small date is a die crack running up through the 5 of the date. Think this is the only one sold by London Coins - as I say, their other ones are mistakenly called this small date when they are not. I have a low grade one also with the die crack and think I have seen a picture somewhere on this forum (where??) of another. Any more known by anyone? I spent this morning looking through all my pictures of 1858 pennies sold on ebay in the 5 year period between September 2006 and September 2011. I have been gradually trying to do stats on some of the easier dates but thought in light of the discussion on 1858 Large Rose pennies I would try to come up with something useful for that particular variety. This meant trawling through nearly 5000 images of around 2400 coins. I think that the numbers below will be fairly representative of 1858 Large Roses as a percentage of the entire 1858 population, because in the period 2006-2011 it was only known about by a handful of collectors, prior to the LCA 2012 piece which was only in Fine grade and fetched £600. From the 2400'ish 1858's listed on ebay in these 5 years, there were 13 Large Roses, 6 Small Dates and 7 Large Dates. Two interesting things I also noted were:- 1) The very first one in my study was listed in late 2006. It was an ok grade but was re-listed again a week later because it didn't sell. 2) The second one, which sold around mid-2007, I was surprisingly outbid on at the last minute. This was when we could still see the ebay ID's of other bidders, so it sparked off a discussion between me and John S. about who the bidder called Rashenley actually was.........but I guess that's a secret! I think that the 1858 LR's are one of my favourite varieties in the YH penny series, and have perhaps become a little under-rated since 2012. Like John, I spent quite a time getting my first decent specimen. The 2012 LCA sale prompted collectors to search their own collections to see if they already had one; this resulted in a few more seen at subsequent LCA auctions, several of which I think have been 'doing the rounds' without actually increasing the overall population.

Yes, correct Mike. The DEF colon dots on the 1858LR Small date are the type which Gouby gives as CP 1858 F. Link to his site below:- http://www.michael-coins.co.uk/cp1858DEF.htm

The 1858 Large Rose reverse which is paired with the small date obverse I believe is a completely different die to the Large Rose reverse which is paired with the large date obverse. Pictures of both reverses are attached, where the first obvious difference to note is the colon dot positions. There are also other differences to individual letters in the legends, which can be seen with close up pictures. The Obverse 1858 with large numerals (some think a 9/8), apart from being interesting because of it's peculiar overdate, has the added interest of being seen paired with 3 different reverse dies; the large rose reverse being the second of those. I can provide further details about this if anyone wants more information.

There's also a 1902 low tide variety with the bar in the zero and an inverted wavy 2.

Interesting that he has missed probably the most interesting variant, i.e. with the bar in the zero, as per image below. I guess that's understandable if you only have a small sample of 27 coins though.

Trying quite hard with this one:- https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1845-VICTORIA-COPPER-PENNY/224097567098?hash=item342d41817a:g:D7kAAOSwvgVfIIaY

Ok, I have done this now Richard. It actually wasn't as easy as I thought it would be, but I'm pleased that you asked me for this information because I was a little surprised at the results. I had always thought that there were definitely more of the 'Large Numeral' type than the 'Small Numeral' type, but it turns out they were pretty close. I spent about 3 hours zooming in on all the images, and then double checked I had sorted correctly, Any that I was unsure about I did not include in the figures; some ebay pictures are not great! Anyway, 138 over 5 years split as follows:- 21 Could Not Tell / 55 Small Numerals / 62 Large Numerals. Hope that's useful for some members.

There was a post about 1902LT on the forum back in October 2015 about 2 different types. Different spacings of numerals and top bar across numeral zero.

I hadn't gone down to that level on the 1856's yet Richard, but guess it wouldn't take me long..... so will do it over next few days. Trouble is at the moment I'm writing up my Gambia Banknote collection whilst at the same time digging the neighbours Aspen roots out....... which are knackering my lawn. Wife now retired so need to be a bit careful about computer time!

I did an exercise on ebay for a full 5 years between 10 and 15 years ago where I took images of all Victorian Copper Pennies that were listed. Over that period, for 1856, there were 138 PT's listed and 79 OT's, some may have been listed more than once, but figures are still comparable....I think. Maybe this gives a guide as to rarity. There were very few in high grade, both types.

NODDY wouldn't pay the ransom.........but clearly you really knew that Chris!

Why do the elephants have big ears.............maybe not this one?

Looks like the canon ball has blasted through the rim and hit the lighthouse on this one!

One of my better purchases on ebay, open auction, 5 bids, got it for £23. Actual ebay picture and one I took of the coin when it arrived.

I see that 4 different bidders got caught by that fake 1843, which sold for over £100. Like you say Mike, 'caveat emptor'.

... and I suspect that the edge knocks and cleaning have been deliberately done in an attempt to make it look authentic.

I see that someone has now bid on this, amazing! https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1843-Victoria-Copper-Penny/164249753649

Thanks both. I have emailed you those 1858/7 pictures you wanted to see Mike.

Sorry, I think I have been an idiot. The picture of the 1858 which Richard showed above is the same as the type pictured on MG's website which he names CP 1858 G. I now think that I have mistakenly given the link to the other forum, saying that it discussed this date variety, when in fact it was discussing another very similar, but DIFFERENT 1858 overdate...….. which is the one often seen paired with the re-cut large rose reverse variety. That date also has a distinct 1/1 whereas the CP 1858 G does not. Unfortunately the pictures on that discussion have now been removed as it was so long ago (2009). In an effort to try to redeem myself I show below the two different 1858 overdates, so we can again discuss 9/8's, 8/3's or whatever.

I think that when MG was suggesting a small 9 back in the 2009 discussion he was probably thinking of the small numeral 9 on the penny, i.e. his 1859B as per this image....but the halfpenny 9 may perhaps be an equally good bet!

This date style was discussed in another forum back in 2009, picture of the actual date now removed but text makes interesting reading http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=6&threadid=712566&STARTPAGE=1

I could put a copy of the article on here if someone in authority could confirm I wouldn't be in breach of any copyright

Lux.... the alluring world of French roses, each flower carefully picked.....seriously though, had more sushine in the month of May than my panels have ever recorded in any previous calendar month.... but now I need a holiday....... a few wet days makes you quickly forget

This is the variety which MG described in the Spinks May 2010 circular as most likely being an 1858/2. It is distinctive by the die flaws which commence along the bottom of the numerals, and then further develops along the top and also towards the border. I have never seen one without any numeral flaws, so would be interesting to know if anyone has one like that.