Red Riley

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I don't want to downplay the forgery issue, but we have to remember that 99% of coins in the market are still genuine and many of the 1% that aren't are unconvincing. In the case of early milled issues, the original coins were typified by their variety. Spinks list varieties for many years and you only have to have been a member of this forum for a little while to realise that new (or newly recognised) variations turn up all the time. Yes, we have to be wary and it pays to arm yourself with the appropriate tools such an accurate pair of scales, but still the vast bulk of coins will turn out to be genuine. As I mentioned above, the method by which modern forgeries are made would mean that if there is an item such as a dot missing, then that is because the original (and genuine) coin from which the die was made also had this feature. Modern day forgers are not going to go to the trouble of completely recutting a die when a few pounds on e-bay would provide them with the genuine article. Contemporary forgeries are different, usually being made of the wrong material, often with a wash of silver or gold to hide the base metal underneath. Most of these just don't feel right and a reasonably competent numismatist can smell them a mile off; there are of course exceptions but they are in a very small minority. Going back to the original coin (1707/8 2/6d?), you have provided a good quality picture and although this is a real hostage to fortune, I would be pretty convinced that it is the genuine article.

Do you not get my point though, that in this particular instance we cannot rely on the die flaw to indicate a forgery.

Yes, pewter figures. Much is still made from pewter though and my guess would be that they were turned out by the bucket load in the 1980s or 90s. I have a further recollection that at one stately home (Warwick Castle rings a bell) you could pay £1 or something and strike your own coin on site. Whether this was the same coin we are talking about here I don't know.

I think I agree with you Bob. The eBay coin and that posted by Gary are different grades. As the Chinese forgeries are usually produced using a genuine coin essentially as a master hub (a positive die), all will be identical and therefore the same grade. By the same token, dies made at the mint last for what, 100,000-150,000 coins. The issue of half crowns in 1905 (normal 'health warnings' re annual mintage figures apply!) was 166,000. It is therefore highly likely that a very high proportion of those dated 1905 had this particular flaw. I know the forgers can be good, but if the coins for sale on eBay were indeed forgeries, their producers would have to be very, very good indeed.

OK, I've tracked mine down and it is identical to yours, dated 1562. The 'r' in lower case is to the left of the French coat of arms i.e. the top left hand segment of the shield. That blob in the field on both your coin and mine is an 'r'. Q.E.D.

Hi Rob, Some of us on here actually enjoy answering questions; somehow it makes us feel important! So my answers are as follows: 1) Er pass... not my subject. I still rue the days when information was stored on little stone tablets. 2) See above, but if you want answers to everything, suggest you don't flood us with 100 all at once. 2 or 3 at a time saves overloading our little brains. 3) See above. 4) See Azda's reply. 5) Yes, Azda has pretty much got it right, Spink's is the market leader particularly as your coins go back to before 1797. Rotographic (aka Chris Perkins, the owner of this site) also publishes a very handy price guide which is a lot cheaper than Spink's. If you don't have many copper coins before 1797 or silver prior to 1816, it may be an idea to buy 'Collectors' Coins GB 2010' and just borrow Spink's from the library. Rotographic also publish 'The Standard Guide to Grading British Coins'. There is a reason for my suggesting this, but I've forgotten what it is!

This certainly isn't resin; my guess being stainless steel but with toning in all the right places, so very easy to be taken in. The 'r' being lower case is also very easy to confuse with a metal flaw whereas an upper case 'R' would be much more obvious. I still have it somewhere, but I can't lay my hands on it at present.

These really are difficult to get hold of, it was the last one missing in my run too. I eventually bought one, NF condition in 2008 for £226. Sadly not currently for sale though.

I actually found a similar coin in my mother's effects when she died 4 years ago. This then of course begs the question of where on Earth did she get it from? The thing was clearly not silver but what I had interpreted as a flaw in the blank could actually be read as a lower case 'r' (for 'replica'). I have it in the back of my mind that there was a stately home somewhere that was selling these things as souveneirs to tourists but which one this was I just can't say, but presumably this is where she got it from.

Yes, I appreciate that forgeries are a real issue for all of us, but speaking personally I think that if third party grading services remove some of the risk, they nonetheless effectively sterilise the hobby. Coins are very tactile things, after all that's what they were designed for and I would much rather run the risk of picking a duff'un or putting a fingerprint across a BU 1926 ME than be reduced to the custodian of a number of anodine chunks of plastic containing things that were once genuine coins. Has the much greater problem of forged artwork persuaded the likes of Christies to encapsulate genuine Monets or Modiglianis in polyethylene or whatever to prevent forgery? Of course we must do all we can to root out these malicious fakes, but it must not be at the expense of turning our great hobby into a branch of the financial establishment with prices quoted in the Financial Times. I for one don't want to hear Robert Peston saying things like, 'Prices of coins slumped today on Wall Street as a report by Standard and Poore's slated the market as being overvalued...'. There are enough boring things out there that people call 'investments' without adding to the whole tedious list. My coin collection is there for my own personal pleasure and for that of anybody else of a like mind. It is not an investment, it exists to satisfy my craving for something which is at one time relatively complete and of genuine historic value. I dare say that there is the odd coin in my collection which isn't all it might seem but hey, c'est la vie. If third party grading services are the answer, then perhaps we asked the wrong question.

Declan, that's exactly the potty, bizarre sort of thing that I would do. You're not an only child as well are you?

Of course I meant 'come out' not 'come out' if you see what I mean...

Er... can we come out yet?

Contemporary forgeries have some historical significance and although not hugely valuable, should never be binned.

Although they do present pitfalls for the inexperienced, in my view contemporary forgeries just add to the fun of collecting and can be an interesting area of collection in their own right. The coins issued in 1816-20 were particularly prone to less than convincing forgery. Every serious numismatist should have at least one in their collection! There is a distinct difference between the two types of forgery. Contemporary forgeries were designed by the counterfeiters to defraud the faceless government of the day whereas the latest glut are much more pernicious in that their intention is to swindle the likes of you and me out of our individually hard-earned cash. It's Brinks Mat v. a Post Office heist.

The obverse is a lot worse than the reverse which shows the slightly odd pattern of wear on the side of the face but very little on the fingers which is usually the touchstone. I go GVF/NEF Arguably the obverse condition is largely irrelevant on a coin where you are only interested in a small portion of the reverse but I think that given the current state of the market, the price may not be that optimistic sadly.

What gets me is that it isn't even a particularly interesting variety. The '3' is a couple of microns thinner than normal. Well great. I've said before that such minor varieties don't float my boat. Apologies if I step on anyone's toes but to me this is 'geek collecting'. Clearly though there are at least two of them out there with infinitely deep pockets. With this in mind, how much do you reckon a really interesting penny such as 1933, 1952 or 1954 would go for? First seven figure penny anyone?

Hi Snowball, welcome to the forum. I will say right now that I have no idea re the £1 note but it does look fairly creased so suspect not much. The rest of what I have to say probably won't make your day either; first of all, the 1948 2/6d and 1940 1/2d have no value at all and given the fact that the others are quite worn and very common, you would probably be looking at maybe £2-3 each. If you want to sell them, probably the best way is to put them on e-bay with a starting price of 99p and see what happens.

I'm afraid I agree with you, some of the prices for rarities these days are astounding, but no way would I deal with that seller. He states a strict 'no returns' policy and then concocts some cock and bull story to justify his policy. If the coins are not exactly as described then I think it highly likely that his policy contravenes Canadian law, as it would in the UK but if it push came to shove, trying to resolve any issues across international boundaries would be a nightmare.

Not sure, but you don't want to 'peon' a live rail. I'll get my coat...

It's actually a William and Mary farthing (Gulielmus et Maria - the Maria bit being the only part that hasn't worn away). No great value but as Rob inferred, if you want to sell it, the best thing you can do is put it on e-bay with a 99p start and see what gives.

Unfortunately, not buying from China is not the end of it. There is a lot of money to be made buying this stuff and then selling it on secondhand as it were. If a guy in London buys say, a Gothic crown from China (fake obviously) at a hefty discount to the value of the real thing, keeps it for a while, and then re-lists it from his home address, there is no evidence remaining that it ever came from China and the chances of the end purchaser being able to pick it as a duffer are quite low. Very worrying.

Reasonably well struck but a few bag/later abrasions on the obverse. I would say not far off the going rate but if it were me, the abrasions would probably begin to grate after a while. Generally speaking I think Colin Cookes know their business and you are unlikely to get much of a bargain but on the other hand you're not likely to get seriously stung either. From the blancmange.

I must be getting forgetful in my old age, but was that really me?