Peckris

I would guess it was done just after minting. I say that from the evidence of a W&W lot in the 90s that featured many UNC coins from the 1950s, in large multiples for each date, and clearly taken from mint bags - the 1957 halfpennies were all 'calm sea', about 30 or 40 of them, the most I've ever seen in one place.

A census of eBay? Why do I suddenly feel tired!!

I would regard the 1957 'calm sea' 'wavy sea' varieties hover between major and minor - yes, you have to look at just one feature (the waves), but it is a glaringly obvious difference in my opinion and I'd personally rank it as a major variety. What I would term 'micro' are the precise differences between the ship on the reverse of each date of Elizabeth II halfpenny. Each one is a minutely different size, but not interesting at all (to me, anyway). As for the precise position of the 7 in the date on 'calm sea' halfpennies, that seems the ultimate in 'micro' to me.

I know what you mean but am still not sure it will show anything other than the existence of the said coin. My rare (I've never come across another) 1935 proof penny is slabbed by NGC. What would this tell someone searching slabbed 1935 coins, beyond the fact that they do exist? It certainly wouldn't indicate rarity. I'm not trying to be awkward, just pointing out the hurdles to interpreting these figures in any meaningful way. Slabbed statistics are worse than useless. Different grades for the same coin counts as two coins if resubmitted; some slabbed coins don't exist because the variety is wrong (though there might actually be a genuine example in a different slab; many coins are removed from slabs and so may be double counted if slabbed and unslabbed populations are combined; NGC used to have several designations for the same generic piece (1797 pennies spring to mind) based on whether someone remembered to put a space in the label detail; slabs get crossed over from one TPG to another because their registry sets are only allowed to be in the host's slabs, so get double counted. All in all the statistics are highly unreliable and best ignored. All it says is that there is likely (but not guaranteed) to be a certain number of an item around. Something we already knew because the reference books included the item in the first place. Surely post decimalisation for UK coins mintage figures are no longer valid. What we should be consentrating on is survival figures, which will skew heavily in favour of rarer coins. That's what I meant when I spoke about a survey - nothing to do with slabbing. What we can safely assume is that vast quantities of low grade, common coins got melted down; and as you say, the rarer items got pulled out of circulation, especially in lower grades, and will survive in higher quantities in proportion to the commoner items, than before decimalisation. And we can also assume that people who kept some predecimal coins for sentimental reasons, will have mostly low grade common items (especially judging by the kind of lots that find their way to provincial auction houses). Finally, we can assume that most low grade coins with silver in, have been withdrawn and melted down for bullion value. The distorting factor is high grade items (AUNC+ from 1937, or EF+ before than). With the exception of mid-60s stuff onwards, plus a few anomalous dates like 1959 sixpences, 1957E and 1959E shillings, 1953 stuff, perhaps also 1936 and 1937, the rest of it is subject to the following factors : 1) they didn't turn up during late 60s collecting fever (in change) unless you were very lucky 2) they will always be more in demand which will push prices up even if they are proportionately less rare than they once were What we really need to know, in my opinion, is the true scarcity of high grade, non-rare dates. Some have survived in large quantities due to bullion reasons - silver from 1914-1919, and silver from 1942-1946, but what is the true comparative scarcity of everything else, especially in relation to known scarcities and rarities?

i think its fair to say 1 of the coins is on a par with your coin dave......the other 2 are not as bad as the coin mr platt is advertising.....maybe theyre between the two.......will get the camera out at the weekend and post some pics so that you can judge. I have decided to give it a go and have sorted out a couple of very low grade shillings. will post those results too, dave you recommend 10 secs of dip and then washing.......any minimum amount of time for the rinse? if the rinse is too short could the dip attack the coins surface? ski Yes, 10 seconds of dip is the maximum I'd try, to avoid damage. And yes, rinse it thoroughly - if you hold under a cold water tap for a good half minute, remembering to turn the coin slightly so the part of the rim you're holding gets rinsed too (or just immerse it in a jar of cold water for a short time then rinse off).

And this has been dipped to long 120985595521 someone insert url please Here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/120985595521;jsessionid=4058D5BB0C16E77C78265FC07B93800A?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D120985595521%26_rdc%3D1 Horrid. Hard to see that toning back, ever.

im sorry but ive got no stomach for that thought. Nor I, for a Hershey Bar!

Sorry, I thought your 8 were just referring to 1957 halfpennies. What are the 4 calm sea varieties? Freeman only has one. Calm sea varieties 7 points to bead 7 points to left of bead 7 points to space blunter 7 points to bead actually I have just consulted Mr Groom's book and there are 3 more 7 points to right of bead blunt 7 to left of bead blunt 7 to right of bead The initial 4 are mentioned in CCGB. So they are - as a footnote. I see they are also in David Sealy's 1970 survey. Not sure anyone who is after a 'calm sea' would be particularly interested in those micro-varieties? You'd have to be a heroic completist to go after those!

That circular patch to the left of the trident is an absolute clincher isn't it. Nice coin.

It's all about being a completist. As soon as a variety is found, everyone has a gap in their collection to be filled. As Peck says, they're not that rare (VR Court estimates 6:1 in favour of the more common variety) so can be picked up by the eagle-eyed at a very reasonable price. There's always a good feeling from paying standard money for a rarer variety. Just reading this thread and thought that, from the completist point of view, there are four 1944 penny varieties. The narrow date mint darkened, the wider date mint darkened, the narrow date not mint darkened/light hypo, and the wider date not mint darkened/light hypo. By 'narrow date' and 'wider date', I presume you're referring to the 'recut waves, clearly double exergue line' varieties? I think of it as top of the second 4 pointing TO a wave and, alternatively, pointing to the left of a wave. Am I wrong to assume the date is wider, is it just that the waves are cut differently? If you re-read this entire thread again (I don't have the energy!) you may well find there is a micro difference in date width - however, most references to the variety refer to the recut waves and clear doubled exergue lines.

thats all you girls ever think about.......sex and cake... oh and chocolate.......which you can get at christmas shaped like coins...yay Round, yes. Coin-shaped, yes. Covered in gold foil, yes. Chocolate? I'd rather eat a Hershey Bar.. and I'd rather be disembowelled alive than eat a Hershey Bar!!

I've long thought this ought to be done for all post-1887 coins. There are so many modern myths that date from the late 60s "fever" (concerning the comparative rarity of modern coins especially in top grade), I just don't think many of them apply any more. 1958 brass 3ds, 1952 sixpences in less than EF, 1946 BU halfpennies, and many more. On the other hand there are genuine scarcities that aren't reflected in price guides - how many of us have an 1894 halfcrown in EF or better? A survey is really impossible, but I wish it could be done. Maybe a large enough sample of collectors and dealers, done as a 'census' on one particular date, could at least give a statistically valid result?

Sorry, I thought your 8 were just referring to 1957 halfpennies. What are the 4 calm sea varieties? Freeman only has one.

Here, here! Top result, Dave, definitely adds value I'd say. However, I'm also with you Ski on the toning issue. Whilst it may add sterling value to D's HC because it will now appeal to a wider market, I have to say I could very well live with both the pre AND post dip coin. It would very much depend on the general tonal trend of the collection it was going to sit within, I guess? That's very true. From my own perspective, even if all my 1911 - 1920 halfcrowns were beautifully toned (and not all are!), I'd still find it hard to live with Dave's "pre dip" specimen, and though it's now untoned, I think it's 1000% better than how it looked before. But as you say, it's a personal choice. Interestingly, my 1917 and 1919 halfcrowns came from an auction lot where the coins were all deformed by a purple tarnish (believe me, it didn't look good!). I dipped for 10 seconds and they came out with pretty much all of the tarnish off. I then stored them in a cabinet and after 5 years or so, they toned back beautifully; they now have a gorgeous blue/red toning that's verging on purple, but a very attractive appearance, unlike before.

I've had some REALLY mixed results with acetone! I've previously stripped off what was a lovely golden tone over a nice lustred 20c XII, turned a reasonable silver hammered a strange yellowish colour, and gave an unnatural tone to an E7 farthing. I do still use it on really grubby coins, but I'm much more cautious with it nowadays! Will trial some of this dip, though, I've got a few 1887's in the sacrificial hold! Aye, the 1887 JH shilling in F makes an ideal candidate for experimenting with silver dip

I'm pretty vacant but I don't care. Never mind the Boll*cks First use of the C word in pop music to get past the censors

What, BOTH of them? 8 of the buggers No Way!!!!

ok maybe not a wardrobe ...... True, but I didn't say anything about a or a either :D

What, BOTH of them?

There are no crocodiles in Dundee because the jam and jute industries are repellent to them. You forgot one of the 3 Js that Dundee was once famous for Jabba the Hurrt, Jimmy?

okay thanks, so i got to leave by the radiator for a long time to tone......right?......i recall you saying once to leave them on top of a wardrobe.....is that better for copper/bronze? No, that wasn't me I don't think? In any case, dipped coins only applies to silver not to copper / bronze (which would be very difficult to alter the tone of anyway). With the latter it is important to buy with the right tone from your point of view, from the start, as you can do so little about it.

:) :)

Why, that's George Vicious, contemporary of John Lydon, can't you tell from the Mohican? What size is it? It appears to be a crude imitation of a George IV crown, but with the addition of LANCELOTT and BIRM: - googling that name and Birmingham came up with a few references, one of which was a late 19th book published by an Ernest Lancelott of Birmingham, about how to prevent your purse from being lost or stolen! But like others, I'd say it was most likely to be a Birmingham gaming token, and Lancelott may be the name of the issuer.

yes there seems to be a bit of an overlap between the two, being ugly and calling it tarnish helps in understanding the diference and knowing why toning is good. ......thats where im at with a couplle of my coins.....im suspicious If completely untoned, but rather 'flat' looking and not lustrous, you would be right to be suspicious..

Ahh, now you say that, but out of around 20 coins I've bought recently, either because they were unusual or pretty, two of them are not in BCW. One is an un-noted die-pairing, and the other an un-noted legend feature! Small stuff, I know, but with an estimated (mine) 1000+ dies for the sixpences alone, there must be plenty up for grabs! I don't think many out there would care a toss about it, really, or pay any more for one, on account it would be a Very VERY long time before any collector got close to having only a few holes in their Elizabeth sixpence collection, and anywhere near thinking about paying a premium to fill it! I might just work backwards and collect the uncollected, now there's a challenge! Yes, I wasn't actually including hammered in my definition, as each coin is almost a micro-variety in itself!