1949threepence

I've joined the group. but cannot find the thread concerned to do screenshots, despite scrolling a very long way down, Could you tag me into the thread and then I can easily oblige.

My 1853 proof penny (below) is somewhat like that, although the very attractive reddish portions on the reverse don't show up to well on the photo. I reckon it has to catch the light in a certain way to be readily visible. I think it came from a set but not certain. Interestingly, there were only 40 sets minted according to information in Coin News as it related to the Tyrant collection - link - but there surely has to be more proof pennies than that, purely from observation. Although when and why the extra were minted is a mystery. Moreover, Peck says there is a bronzed copper proof from 1853, with an inverted reverse. Never seen one advertised though, or seen one anywhere come to that.

I'd agree with all of the above. With regard to the influence of submitters, I'd venture to say that because NGC is an American company, generally (one would assume) employing mostly American staff, they are not so well up on English and other foreign coins, just as we would not be especially familiar with American coins. Hence they can probably get away with suggesting that a well preserved and sharply struck currency coin is a proof, or that a common coin is a rare variety etc.

As you say it's just a number ascribed to an individual coin, and risks subjectivity of grading - ie: different graders, or even the same grader reaching an alternative grade on another day. Good point with your last sentence though.

A case in point regarding the ongoing rise in coin prices. "The Coinery" are offering an 1839 proof penny at their auction of 29.7.23, with estimates of between £5,000 and £6,000, and a minimum starting bid of £4,000. The coin is NGC slabbed in a special "Coinery" holder, and is graded as PF66 BN - link I won an 1839 proof on 22.5.22, also from The Coinery for £3,700 hammer. But I had to fight for it, from the £2500 commission bid I'd left. Mine was also in a special NGC Coinery slab, but PF64 BN. So my theory is that yes, although almost certainly the difference between PF64 & PF66 makes a price difference, I wouldn't have thought it would account for such a sizeable difference. Much of the increase is surely due to overall price rises in coins. Incidentally, any differences betwen this coin, and the one I got, are Rizla paper thin. In fact I'd venture that my reverse is superior to this one. There are marks (scratches) on the coin currently offered, although as with many slabbed coins, it's often difficult to determine whether the mark is on the coin itself, or externally on the plastic holder. 1839 pennies are scarce generally, but rare in undisturbed, issue free, high grade.

love swans

I'm amazed they've not included the Medusa.

Excellent. Been using cabinets for many years and had no deterioration of coins, whatever. The coins will only slide around if the cabinet moves. If you treat it gently, that won't happen. Don't open and close the trays roughly or in a hurry. Besides which I think "cabinet friction" is a casual term often used by those who don't have a clue whether the coin concerned has ever been in a cabinet. A huge clue is the way an old proof is FDC - yet for at least, say, the first 150 years of its existence there was no viable modern alternative to a wooden cabinet.

Yep - you don't need as many recesses for your proofs/patterns as you do for your general currency strike collection, as by definition there will be far fewer. This is a nice box to hold them in Not for everybody though. We all have differing opinions.

Personally I prefer a classic wooden coin cabinet for my copper and bronze proofs. I've got several cabinets, and this is the quite small one I use for my proofs. Walnut, with untreated mahogany trays so as to prevent leeching/contamination. Untreated mahogany is always the best wood for storage. Incidentally, talking of copper proofs, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see quite a few in Noonans auction of the Philip Richardson collection of George III coins on 3rd October 2023 at 14h BST.

OK, so using the T scale, let's remind ourselves of the definitions for T8 and T9:- T8 - Motor cars hurled great distances. Wooden frames houses and their contants dispersed over long distances; stone or brick houses irreperably damaged; steel framed buildings buckled. T9 - Many steel framed buildings badly damaged; locomotives or trains hurled some distances. Complete de-barking of any standing tree trunks. I'm fascinated to know when we had such a powerful tornado in the UK - so do you have a date and location? I can then check it out with the meteorological conditions. I've spent many years studying weather and weather history in this country and have never seen factual and verifiable reports of such powerful tornados. I don't accept that the tornado which occurred in Portsmouth in December 1810 was anything like as powerful as touted by some, as a) there is very little information about it, and b) definitions are different these days to what they would have been then.

We'd have a climate not dissimilar to Quebec in Winter - link

Yep, cut off the gulf stream and we will immediately become dominated by a European or Scandinavian anticyclone in Winter, and Winters such as 1947 or 1963, will rapidly become the norm. Probably worse. Western Europe already colder than us in Winter, will become even colder. Given how quickly the European continent cools down in Autumn, it's likely we would see a rapid temperature plunge from about mid November onwards.

We should really be grateful at present that currently, our Summer weather resembles an old school wet, cool and unsettled British Summer. There is an extreme heatwave over Southern Europe with temperatures above 40 degrees. Not pleasant. On 6th July, the town of Adrar, Algeria recorded a minimum overnight temperature of 39.6 °C. The highest minimum temperature ever recorded in African climatic history. That's incredible. We're not out of the woods yet. The very hottest (peak of the heat) of our hot spells tend to occur late July/early August. Hopefully we will avoid those extremes. Of course, being a relatively small island surrounded by sea helps. For the same reason, many Portuguese travel to Madeira for respite from the heat - of course it's hot there as well, but not nearly as hot as the mainlad, despite being further South, as it is a very small island surrounded by sea, with the concomitant cooling effect. High lying suburban estates also help. link

But of course ours are much weaker than theirs. Some barely register at all. I doubt if we've ever had an F3 - probably F2 maximum. Possibly the strongest tornado to ever hit the UK, was the one which started in Buckinghamshire and travelled about 60 miles to somewhere in Cambridgeshire, on 21st May 1950. That caused a lot of damage with uprooted trees, sheds and greenhouses ruined, and cars overturned. Luckily it was a Sunday morning and there was nobody about when some scaffolding collapsed into the street. You were just unlucky to cop for a shower at that specific time..

Fantastically well researched Ian. Much appreciated. My specimen has the start of a die flaw between the V and I of VICTORIA, but no extension beyond that.

You might get away with it depending on the time of your session. I think there will be some rain in your part of the world early on, but will clear by late morning (11ish). Probably much heavier over the Bristol Channel in South Wales. Thunder unlikely as this is just ordinary, common or garden, frontal rain.

Thanks Ian. Got it from Cambridgeshire Coins, who often tend to be careless and have let some high value coins go for peanuts - not checked.

I think my 1859 small date is (by pure default) one of the taller 9 with oval loop. When purchased, it wasn't even touted as a small date, just date only. I haven't got close up photographic equipment (must get), but here is the best I could do with an ordinary pic. Not sure it will be good enough to discern the difference.

Thanks. Yes it's odd isn't it. Superior photography (such as the photos Noonan's provide) can be a real selling point and attract buyers. You'd think an organisation with Baldwin's experience would pay more attention to this. The pic I've done is pretty much how the coin looks in hand. For example the colour is identical.

Ultimately a damp squib !!! Such is the problem in forecasting thunderstorms.

Finally managed to get a decent grade 1856 OT. Obviously not the absolute apex, but orders of magnitude better than the one I've got. I'd say toned EF/NEF. No issues. This is lot 401 from the recent Baldwin's auction. Was chased all the way for it as well. Baldwins refer to "intermittent lustre", but I can't see any lustre at all.

Indeed so - and it will get more uncomfortable before temperatures start to fall back to nearer normal on Sunday. The humidity which precedes big storms, some find unbearable. Over much of England it won't get below 18 degrees tonight. In the big cities it's unlikely to get below 19 to 20 degrees - London possibly 21 degrees. Not a record, but still very "phew what a scorcher!"

A very interesting situation is developing - one which I thought I would type a few words of advance notification on. Currently very warm and increasingly humid air is coming up from the South. In such a situation, one would in any case expect heat thunderstorms to develop in the normal course of events - which they will, especially later today over France. What marks the current situation out as noteworthy and to be watched, are two things, a) the upper air is unusually cold, which will enable prodigious and extremely powerful thunderstorms to form, and secondly a trough of low pressure is approaching from the West. This will enhance any thundery activity as it passes. What may happen is that the trough or front, is held up by friction at the surface, and becomes slow moving. This will intensify the thundery activity still further, and prolong it. However, the nature of thunderstorms is one of great unpredictability in extent, severity and positioning. So what I've said above is a potentiality, not a certainty. Just be aware that if you do get a storm, it could be unusually severe. As ever, no idea at this stage whether lightning will be predominantly intercloud (sheet), or cloud to Earth (forked), or a mixture. This will vary from storm cell to storm cell.

There are so many weird, unanswered inconsistencies regarding that case.