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1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

The second factor is a weak strike on coins which are otherwise uncirculated. Just co-incidental that the same area is affected.

Maybe not a coincidence - if the right breast is the first to show wear it is because it is the highest point of the coin. If it is the highest point of the coin, then it will be the lowest (deepest) point of the die, and therefore probably the first point that any die fill will occur, resulting in a weakly struck breast. Just a thought.

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Great information, Ian, I'll add this to my varieties site in the next few days.

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14 minutes ago, 1949threepence said:

The position of the colon on the first example (large rose/small date) is in pretty much the same position as the intermediate colon (Peck 1503) on the 1853. ETA as well as the two stops being smaller and further away from each other.

Yes, correct Mike.

The DEF colon dots on the 1858LR Small date are the type which Gouby gives as CP 1858 F. Link to his site below:-

http://www.michael-coins.co.uk/cp1858DEF.htm

 

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11 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Maybe not a coincidence - if the right breast is the first to show wear it is because it is the highest point of the coin. If it is the highest point of the coin, then it will be the lowest (deepest) point of the die, and therefore probably the first point that any die fill will occur, resulting in a weakly struck breast. Just a thought.

Indeed, great point Richard. 

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9 minutes ago, alfnail said:

Yes, correct Mike.

The DEF colon dots on the 1858LR Small date are the type which Gouby gives as CP 1858 F. Link to his site below:-

http://www.michael-coins.co.uk/cp1858DEF.htm

 

Thanks Ian.

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6 hours ago, Martinminerva said:

Hi, Cliff. Just looked at my low grade one and yes, the die clash is there. Looks like that is another good diagnostic as well as the die crack through the 5. Apologies for poor quality pics here from crappy iPad, but you should be able just to make out both clash and die crack. They are both much clearer in hand.

 

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

I can make no other comment than my iPad doesn't take crappy pictures at all, unless I've done something wrong like move or get too close or something similar.

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39 minutes ago, Peckris 2 said:

I can make no other comment than my iPad doesn't take crappy pictures at all, unless I've done something wrong like move or get too close or something similar.

Ah, but I bet yours isn't a seven year old iPad 2 ...😀 It doesn't do macro.

Not my usual thing I take pictures with, but it was all I had to hand today. Anyway, it still confirmed for Cliff the presence of the die clash he was asking about.

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On 8/4/2020 at 11:26 AM, Martinminerva said:
On 8/4/2020 at 11:15 AM, Martinminerva said:

Well, blow me, Mike - it was me you have bought it from! Didn't recognise the full name when I came to packet it up for posting. Anyway, really pleased it is going to a good home. I managed to get hold of a better one a few weeks ago so was moving this one on. You now need to look out for a large rose but with a small date! These are MUCH rarer it seems... I have one in rather low grade and have seen maybe only two more. For a long while, London Coins were selling these larger date ones as small date, but they are certainly not! I think they have sold one genuinely small date one for quite a sum. I'll see if I can locate their image of it now...

Enjoy the coin! Posted yesterday (Monday) so hopefully you'll get it today or tomorrow.

 

Found it : Auction 137, 3/6/12, Lot 478. Sold for £600. The diagnostic feature of the genuinely small date is a die crack running up through the 5 of the date. 

Think this is the only one sold by London Coins - as I say, their other ones are mistakenly called this small date when they are not. I have a low grade one also with the die crack and think I have seen a picture somewhere on this forum (where??) of another. Any more known by anyone?

I spent this morning looking through all my pictures of 1858 pennies sold on ebay in the 5 year period between September 2006 and September 2011. I have been gradually trying to do stats on some of the easier dates but thought in light of the discussion on 1858  Large Rose pennies I would try to come up with something useful for that particular variety. This meant trawling through nearly 5000 images of around 2400 coins. 

I think that the numbers below will be fairly representative of 1858 Large Roses as a percentage of the entire 1858 population, because in the period 2006-2011 it was only known about by a handful of collectors, prior to the LCA 2012 piece which was only in Fine grade and fetched £600.

From the 2400'ish 1858's listed on ebay in these 5 years, there were 13 Large Roses, 6 Small Dates and 7 Large Dates.

Two interesting things I also noted were:-

1) The very first one in my study was listed in late 2006. It was an ok grade but was re-listed again a week later because it didn't sell.

2) The second one, which sold around mid-2007, I was surprisingly outbid on at the last minute. This was when we could still see the ebay ID's of other bidders, so it sparked off a discussion between me and John S. about who the bidder called Rashenley actually was.........but I guess that's a secret!

I think that the 1858 LR's are one of my favourite varieties in the YH penny series, and have perhaps become a little under-rated since 2012.

Like John, I spent quite a time getting my first decent specimen. The 2012 LCA sale prompted collectors to search their own collections to see if they already had one; this resulted in a few more seen at subsequent LCA auctions, several of which I think have been 'doing the rounds' without actually increasing the overall population.

    

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49 minutes ago, alfnail said:

 

I spent this morning looking through all my pictures of 1858 pennies sold on ebay in the 5 year period between September 2006 and September 2011. I have been gradually trying to do stats on some of the easier dates but thought in light of the discussion on 1858  Large Rose pennies I would try to come up with something useful for that particular variety. This meant trawling through nearly 5000 images of around 2400 coins. 

I think that the numbers below will be fairly representative of 1858 Large Roses as a percentage of the entire 1858 population, because in the period 2006-2011 it was only known about by a handful of collectors, prior to the LCA 2012 piece which was only in Fine grade and fetched £600.

From the 2400'ish 1858's listed on ebay in these 5 years, there were 13 Large Roses, 6 Small Dates and 7 Large Dates.

Two interesting things I also noted were:-

1) The very first one in my study was listed in late 2006. It was an ok grade but was re-listed again a week later because it didn't sell.

2) The second one, which sold around mid-2007, I was surprisingly outbid on at the last minute. This was when we could still see the ebay ID's of other bidders, so it sparked off a discussion between me and John S. about who the bidder called Rashenley actually was.........but I guess that's a secret!

I think that the 1858 LR's are one of my favourite varieties in the YH penny series, and have perhaps become a little under-rated since 2012.

Like John, I spent quite a time getting my first decent specimen. The 2012 LCA sale prompted collectors to search their own collections to see if they already had one; this resulted in a few more seen at subsequent LCA auctions, several of which I think have been 'doing the rounds' without actually increasing the overall population.

    

Ian, I can only stand and applaud not only at your initial dedication at assembling this information between 2006 and 2011, but also in taking the time to trawl through the images in order to arrive at a number of large rose types to the remainder of the 1858 population included in your study. Thanks and maximum respect to you for this.

Two points from me. Firstly I never imagined the large rose as a proportion of the rest, would be as low as 0.54%. That is a genuine surprise, and I can only say how pleased I am to have secured one, albeit at relatively low grade.

Second point is from what John said about him first becoming aware of the existence of this type from "Coin Market Values" in 1998 - only 22 years ago. Obviously that still doesn't pinpoint exactly when and who. Maybe whoever it was didn't treat it as a revelation because they assumed it was already known about. So it actually became more widely known about by stealth, as it were.     

Previously, I simply couldn't understand why neither Bramah nor Peck had come across this type and mentioned it in their writings. But with that kind of scarcity wrapped within what is the commonest pre 1860 Victoria year, it perhaps becomes more understandable. 

Finally I think I know who Rashenly might be...........;) 

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1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

Ian, I can only stand and applaud not only at your initial dedication at assembling this information between 2006 and 2011, but also in taking the time to trawl through the images in order to arrive at a number of large rose types to the remainder of the 1858 population included in your

Hear, hear! An amazing piece of dedication and meticulous study. Wow! This might be an even sneakier follow up question: of those 6 small dates and 7 large, do you reckon they were 13 different specimens, or were some of them coming round again?😮 One would have to look for unique wear points or damage or discolouration etc to be sure, I guess...

Since I have been aware of the two types and been looking ( perhaps 5 or 6 years ) for them, I have certainly seen fewer small date than large, both on eBay and in mainstream auctions like London Coins. But your figures, Ian, would suggest similar rarity. I wonder now with this thread and revived interest, if a few more specimens of each type might surface??

Bravo to you, Ian!

 

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Hi Martin,

Thanks for that, and your question.

I was just about to reply to Mike to say that the % may be a little higher then 0.54%.

I am sure that the 13 are all different examples. You can always find other unique markings on coins to check on this. The only one listed twice was the first one in 2006 which I mentioned above. So result was 13, not 14.

However, some of the other 1858's in the sample of 2400'ish will have been double counted. I cannot possibly check for every instance of listing same coins. Apart from the fact that some pictures are really poor, when coins swap hands and are re-listed by a different seller then the pictures always change significantly.

If I were to give it a best guess I would say that discounting relist of same coins over the period then the total population may go down by a couple of hundred, but I think would still be over 2000.

Hope this helps.

I have pictures of all 13 large roses if anyone wishes to see any other examples.

My small date, which I pictured earlier, I bought on ebay for £23 in March 2009. Here are the ebay actual pictures. 

 

P.S. I now know who Rashenley is!

1242o.jpg

1242r.jpg

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Thanks for such a swift and detailed response again, Ian. Really interesting and helpful. Wonder if Richard might be interested in pics of some of the 13 for when he updates his rare penny website that he said he would do??

Also, great spot for your 2009 small date specimen from ebay! A jolly nice coin!

 

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I added the info on small/large date to the varieties website but wasn't planning to add the large rose to my rare penny site as I thought that there were way more than 13 examples.

Maybe I should ?

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21 hours ago, Martinminerva said:

Ah, but I bet yours isn't a seven year old iPad 2 ...😀 It doesn't do macro.

Not my usual thing I take pictures with, but it was all I had to hand today. Anyway, it still confirmed for Cliff the presence of the die clash he was asking about.

Good on you for still using it. :)

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Posted (edited)

That's 13 in 5 years on ebay Richard, not the total population. I reckon that's definitely in excess of 20.

My study was just 5 years of ebay. I have seen several others in the past 9 years, including my best large date specimen.   

 

Edited by alfnail
wording

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2 hours ago, secret santa said:

I added the info on small/large date to the varieties website but wasn't planning to add the large rose to my rare penny site as I thought that there were way more than 13 examples.

Maybe I should ?

As an exercise of pure interest it would be useful to get an idea, even if you took the page down later. The fact that (apparently) neither Bramah nor Peck observed any, surely indicates that there aren't many around, as the variety is distinctive and obvious enough to have been noticed and included by them. 

Although I agree with Ian, there is a high probability of a > 20 extant population. 

 

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1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

As an exercise of pure interest it would be useful to get an idea, even if you took the page down later. The fact that (apparently) neither Bramah nor Peck observed any, surely indicates that there aren't many around, as the variety is distinctive and obvious enough to have been noticed and included by them. 

At the moment my site only has bronze pennies - I'll have a think about including copper. Medusa's an obvious candidate.

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32 minutes ago, secret santa said:

At the moment my site only has bronze pennies - I'll have a think about including copper. Medusa's an obvious candidate.

I think we can safely assume significantly <20 of them !  

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8 hours ago, secret santa said:

At the moment my site only has bronze pennies - I'll have a think about including copper. Medusa's an obvious candidate.

 

9 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

As an exercise of pure interest it would be useful to get an idea, even if you took the page down later. The fact that (apparently) neither Bramah nor Peck observed any, surely indicates that there aren't many around, as the variety is distinctive and obvious enough to have been noticed and included by them. 

Although I agree with Ian, there is a high probability of a > 20 extant population. 

 

I'm sure the 1847 Medusa is still less than 20 Richard, and likely to remain so. There was only one of those on ebay in the 5 year period. It was around £15 until the last few seconds, I was amazed when I bid £500 about 3 seconds from the end and was outbid. It was the chap who used to buy on ebay with ID bargains1*, now sadly passed away, with his coins sold off very poorly and cheaply.

Re. the Large Rose again, I would be intrigued to see how long it will take you to get to 20. If you were to regard as two separate types then I really think you would struggle to get to 20 examples. My guess is that you may not even get there with the Small Numerals type with the flaw through the 5. I could keep my 13 pictures to one side, or share with you first if you wish, and then they could be cross checked to any new ones reported.

Depending upon sub-level, within each year in this series, there may be other candidates. Off top of my head, 1854/3 (real ones!), Bramah 3b, the 1843 DFF, 1853PT with the italic 5 date style, a couple of 1845 date varieties (not the obverse with the big die flaw at front of truncation).........and then there are always the dots, ha ha!! 

Just a thought 

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9 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

Although again Copper pennies not attributed 1847 Medusa and bought a low grade one off ebay for £10.

Do you have a photo of the Ebay specimen, Pete ? (or does Michael G have a photo ?)

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44 minutes ago, alfnail said:

the chap who used to buy on ebay with ID bargains1*, now sadly passed away, with his coins sold off very poorly and cheaply.

Sounds like Hiram.

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37 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Do you have a photo of the Ebay specimen, Pete ? (or does Michael G have a photo ?)

Yes Michael has a photo and one of the 12 known ,i gave it to a forum member when i had a better one.

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