George III - Contemporay Counterfeits - Home Page

[seuk 85]

Just so you can get an idea how nerdy its going to be

Well - starting up with two half finished pages... I'll use this thread to keep everybody informed on any progress

http://www.steppeulvene.com/index.george_iii.html

http://www.steppeulvene.com/index.shilling.html

[Debbie 58]

Wow Seuk you have been busy!How long has that taken so far? I do like it, easy to use even for a beginner.

One thing I would suggest is having a set of photos for the genuine shilling too?

[Coinery 926]

Just so you can get an idea how nerdy its going to be

Well - starting up with two half finished pages... I'll use this thread to keep everybody informed on any progress

http://www.steppeulvene.com/index.george_iii.html

http://www.steppeulvene.com/index.shilling.html

I think it's superb, nice and easy on the eye, not fussy! Is it really that simple to 'visually' spot the fake shilling by identifying the garnish in the NW quarter?

Can I ask why you chose such an obscure domain name? Won't that impact on the searchability?

[seuk 85]

I think it's superb, nice and easy on the eye, not fussy! Is it really that simple to 'visually' spot the fake shilling by identifying the garnish in the NW quarter?

Can I ask why you chose such an obscure domain name? Won't that impact on the searchability?

Mostly you'll spot the fakes right away being of brass/copper/pewter colour - and those which are silvered are very rarely with complete silvering.

The garnish is one of the ways to separate the various types of counterfeits not really to separate counterfeits from genuine as some counterfeits are cast hence details being identical to the genuine coins. (I'm not interested in the cast counterfeits as they are mostly small time effords and probably impossible to separate the moulds used).

The domain name is a fanpage which I did from a legendary danish psych band. I guess its possible to make a separate domain but don't know how and I'll think people will find the pages no matter what they are called. I think the name has some impact on search results but you'll be able to google it anyway.

Right now its all very incomplete and needs lots of work - but the great thing about a home page is you can work when you got the time and upload what you have - doen't need to be a completely finished thing like an article for a magazine.

[seuk 85]

Wow Seuk you have been busy!How long has that taken so far? I do like it, easy to use even for a beginner.

One thing I would suggest is having a set of photos for the genuine shilling too?

About a year+ ~ but I'm only beginning to gather the information in order to make the pages. I'm starting out with the shilling as its the most common/complicated coin in the series and hence a possible key to the other coins.

I do plan to have pictures of genuine coin (from my white cabinet ) as I said the pages are incomplete and will likely have to be reworked several times.

[numismatist 2]

Great start and looking really good . Nice someone devotes

all their time to such projects as it will be much appreciated

by collectors later on , who could never hope to have access

to such detailed information .

[DaveG38 385]

Great start and looking really good . Nice someone devotes

all their time to such projects as it will be much appreciated

by collectors later on , who could never hope to have access

to such detailed information .

Seuk should structure it all up and get it into a book. Web sites are OK, but they are transient and can be lost, damaged or whatever over time, especially if you don't pay your internet/domain name subscriptions. A book on the other hand will end up in the British Library and is there for future generations to read. Get writing as well as webbing!!

[seuk 85]

Great start and looking really good . Nice someone devotes

all their time to such projects as it will be much appreciated

by collectors later on , who could never hope to have access

to such detailed information .

Seuk should structure it all up and get it into a book. Web sites are OK, but they are transient and can be lost, damaged or whatever over time, especially if you don't pay your internet/domain name subscriptions. A book on the other hand will end up in the British Library and is there for future generations to read. Get writing as well as webbing!!

Well right now its all at the very beginning - perhaps some day there will be material for a book.

...having a difficult time with the obverse dies (of the shilling) they are really quite complicated.

[seuk 85]

And the obverse groups

http://www.steppeulvene.com/index.shilling_groups_obverse.html

[Coinery 926]

I think it's superb, nice and easy on the eye, not fussy! Is it really that simple to 'visually' spot the fake shilling by identifying the garnish in the NW quarter?

Can I ask why you chose such an obscure domain name? Won't that impact on the searchability?

Mostly you'll spot the fakes right away being of brass/copper/pewter colour - and those which are silvered are very rarely with complete silvering.

The garnish is one of the ways to separate the various types of counterfeits not really to separate counterfeits from genuine as some counterfeits are cast hence details being identical to the genuine coins. (I'm not interested in the cast counterfeits as they are mostly small time effords and probably impossible to separate the moulds used).

The domain name is a fanpage which I did from a legendary danish psych band. I guess its possible to make a separate domain but don't know how and I'll think people will find the pages no matter what they are called. I think the name has some impact on search results but you'll be able to google it anyway.

Right now its all very incomplete and needs lots of work - but the great thing about a home page is you can work when you got the time and upload what you have - doen't need to be a completely finished thing like an article for a magazine.

I've only just grasped the concept of collecting counterfeits! I've no idea why, but it never occurred to me that there were the dies to think about, and that it would be so specialised as to separate out cast types! It's got quite a bit of magic and mystery involved in it, when you start thinking about all that criminal activity going on in the back rooms of houses in barns in 17 & 18 hundreds!

Is it possible to link dies to real names and court proceedings, hangings, etc? Would make a great museum display (and website), if THAT kind of history could be added to it...what a great book too ;-)

[seuk 85]

I've only just grasped the concept of collecting counterfeits! I've no idea why, but it never occurred to me that there were the dies to think about, and that it would be so specialised as to separate out cast types! It's got quite a bit of magic and mystery involved in it, when you start thinking about all that criminal activity going on in the back rooms of houses in barns in 17 & 18 hundreds!

Is it possible to link dies to real names and court proceedings, hangings, etc? Would make a great museum display (and website), if THAT kind of history could be added to it...what a great book too ;-)

Due to the nature of counterfeits its rarely possible to identify the coiners responsible for individual coins.

An exception:

http://www.predecimal.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6170&st=0&p=56938&fromsearch=1entry56938

Perhaps further studies may reveal other connections as such.

[Coinery 926]

I've only just grasped the concept of collecting counterfeits! I've no idea why, but it never occurred to me that there were the dies to think about, and that it would be so specialised as to separate out cast types! It's got quite a bit of magic and mystery involved in it, when you start thinking about all that criminal activity going on in the back rooms of houses in barns in 17 & 18 hundreds!

Is it possible to link dies to real names and court proceedings, hangings, etc? Would make a great museum display (and website), if THAT kind of history could be added to it...what a great book too ;-)

Due to the nature of counterfeits its rarely possible to identify the coiners responsible for individual coins.

An exception:

http://www.predecimal.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=6170&st=0&p=56938&fromsearch=1entry56938

Perhaps further studies may reveal other connections as such.

That's the kind of stuff! Excellent, could read that kind of history by the bucket load! Good luck with it all!

[seuk 85]

Shilling groups more or less ready:

http://www.steppeulvene.com/index.shilling_group_a.html

[TomGoodheart 373]

That's great stuff seuk! Very nice, and some excellent examples too!

Makes me wonder if I shouldn't do something with my shillings ... but sadly my medical condition (terminal laziness) makes that difficult!

Can I ask what the A (C etc) numbers signify? Are they your own classification of obv/rev types or linked to another publication? (Sorry if that's a daft question!)

[seuk 85]

That's great stuff seuk! Very nice, and some excellent examples too!

Makes me wonder if I shouldn't do something with my shillings ... but sadly my medical condition (terminal laziness) makes that difficult!

Can I ask what the A (C etc) numbers signify? Are they your own classification of obv/rev types or linked to another publication? (Sorry if that's a daft question!)

The numbers etc. are my own invention (fx A701r is A = Group A, 7 = 1817, 01 die number, r = reverse). To my knowledge no one has published any kind of die study of these counterfeits.

How many shilling do you have? ...or how many dies do you think exist?

[seuk 85]

About 50 new pictures added to the pages - so far I've researced 239 coins and found 110 different obverses and 124 reverses. However the actual number may be a little less as there could be a few hidden errors

If we say that an obverse die could produce an average of about 50,000 coins the number of milled counterfeit shillings from these dies would be more than 5,000,000 or £275,000

The real figure will likely be much higher as I think I've only seen about half of the dies used, but that's pure guessing - will need to see alot more shilling to get an idea of the number of dies involved.

I've always found it strange that there's almost no milled George IV counterfeits except for a few halfcrowns mainly of the year 1820. One could get the idea that the coiners stopped their production when George III died However after studying the shillings I think that they continued some years into the 1820s happily minting the old George III coins with the various dates available...

[Peckris 579]

That's great stuff seuk! Very nice, and some excellent examples too!

Makes me wonder if I shouldn't do something with my shillings ... but sadly my medical condition (terminal laziness) makes that difficult!

Can I ask what the A (C etc) numbers signify? Are they your own classification of obv/rev types or linked to another publication? (Sorry if that's a daft question!)

The numbers etc. are my own invention (fx A701r is A = Group A, 7 = 1817, 01 die number, r = reverse). To my knowledge no one has published any kind of die study of these counterfeits.

How many shilling do you have? ...or how many dies do you think exist?

I admire your research. May I suggest that when you assign die numbers, you're missing a layer that wouldn't apply to official releases? Somewhere you need a way to identify (or at least group) the counterfeiter involved. Some will be known from contemporary reports, but no-one has matched dies to particular counterfeiters to my knowledge. If large-scale, there may be several dies associated, but otherwise there may be only one or two. I wonder if there is a way to link die characteristics to particular individuals?

[seuk 85]

That's great stuff seuk! Very nice, and some excellent examples too!

Makes me wonder if I shouldn't do something with my shillings ... but sadly my medical condition (terminal laziness) makes that difficult!

Can I ask what the A (C etc) numbers signify? Are they your own classification of obv/rev types or linked to another publication? (Sorry if that's a daft question!)

The numbers etc. are my own invention (fx A701r is A = Group A, 7 = 1817, 01 die number, r = reverse). To my knowledge no one has published any kind of die study of these counterfeits.

How many shilling do you have? ...or how many dies do you think exist?

I admire your research. May I suggest that when you assign die numbers, you're missing a layer that wouldn't apply to official releases? Somewhere you need a way to identify (or at least group) the counterfeiter involved. Some will be known from contemporary reports, but no-one has matched dies to particular counterfeiters to my knowledge. If large-scale, there may be several dies associated, but otherwise there may be only one or two. I wonder if there is a way to link die characteristics to particular individuals?

Except for the Ingley counterfeits of the 3/- BoE token there seems to be no way of identifying the individual coiners. Perhaps it may be possible to render which coins were made by William Booth but I'm not sure. We can only hope there's some evidence still hiding in the archives ...Scotland Yard?

However more than 90% of the shillings belongs to groups which are connected with each others. So there's a fair chance they were all produced or controled by the same counterfeit ring.

[Peckris 579]

That's great stuff seuk! Very nice, and some excellent examples too!

Makes me wonder if I shouldn't do something with my shillings ... but sadly my medical condition (terminal laziness) makes that difficult!

Can I ask what the A (C etc) numbers signify? Are they your own classification of obv/rev types or linked to another publication? (Sorry if that's a daft question!)

The numbers etc. are my own invention (fx A701r is A = Group A, 7 = 1817, 01 die number, r = reverse). To my knowledge no one has published any kind of die study of these counterfeits.

How many shilling do you have? ...or how many dies do you think exist?

I admire your research. May I suggest that when you assign die numbers, you're missing a layer that wouldn't apply to official releases? Somewhere you need a way to identify (or at least group) the counterfeiter involved. Some will be known from contemporary reports, but no-one has matched dies to particular counterfeiters to my knowledge. If large-scale, there may be several dies associated, but otherwise there may be only one or two. I wonder if there is a way to link die characteristics to particular individuals?

Except for the Ingley counterfeits of the 3/- BoE token there seems to be no way of identifying the individual coiners. Perhaps it may be possible to render which coins were made by William Booth but I'm not sure. We can only hope there's some evidence still hiding in the archives ...Scotland Yard?

However more than 90% of the shillings belongs to groups which are connected with each others. So there's a fair chance they were all produced or controled by the same counterfeit ring.

Wow. That must have been the major crime ring of its day. Did that get broken up?

[azda 973]

Maybe when you' ve finished with the shillings you can start on the £1 coins, apparently there's 14 million of them in the UK, or was it 40 million? Anyway, that should keep you out of trouble for another few years

[seuk 85]

Maybe when you' ve finished with the shillings you can start on the £1 coins, apparently there's 14 million of them in the UK, or was it 40 million? Anyway, that should keep you out of trouble for another few years

Think I got plenty of half finished projects all ready. I need first to get on with the other denominations - although they will be easier since there are fewer dies.

Also I need to group and describe a few hundred dies for the Danish 1771 skilling which were minted in about 55 million copies from 1771-85.

And I'm also playing with the idea of making my own system to sort the Northumbrian stycas out. Enough to keep me off the streets for a few years

[Chris Perkins 223]

Back to George III counterfeits.... I've got about 80 of them! Comprising over 30 halfpennies plus the usual washed silver and even a handsome Irish 6 Shilling. I keep meaning to sort them out and publish pictures etc.

[Peter 615]

Back to George III counterfeits.... I've got about 80 of them! Comprising over 30 halfpennies plus the usual washed silver and even a handsome Irish 6 Shilling. I keep meaning to sort them out and publish pictures etc.

I've got a few examples.Apparently there were more evasions circulating in Scotland than currency.

£1 coins were readily available at 30p each when I worked in London.

[seuk 85]

I can use scans of any of the silver counterfeits including Irish bank tokens - preferable in 1200dpi but 600dpi will do.

http://pds.lib.harvard.edu/pds/view/4787497

This case offers an interesting view into one small coin operation of 1823. It mentions that the convict had 4104 sixpences ready for distribution which seems to suggest that they were either for selling off in quantities or that William Astbury were making the counterfeits on behalf someone else? Unfortunately there's no information on the police work behind the case so we can't see if they tried to find out who made/supplied the dies etc. if not William himself. ...Some were halfcrown dies dated 1819 so perhaps all his counterfeits were George III?

Seems he was transported not hanged:

http://www.convictrecords.com.au/convicts/astbury/william/85174

[moneyer12 0]

i've got the 6d and shilling both are brass with a silver wash which has become worn in parts.