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This is a very interesting subject. I would say that the buyer should pay Richard, as he got a refund when the coin did not turn up. He now has the coin and has effectively not paid for it. 

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13 hours ago, jelida said:

I would not feel comfortable selling/posting coins to any individual who declined to pay under these circumstances, on moral grounds irrespective of the law, and I hope it is not the case here.

I have not yet formally requested anything of the buyer. I am waiting until I understand the legal position(s).

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I have just found the correspondence from the Royal Mail that accompanied their payment of compensation. The claim form that I completed confirms that "I undertake to advise Royal Mail Group Ltd immediately if any lost letters or parcels are subsequently traced, and to refund Royal Mail Group Ltd any monies paid in compensation for these items."

That's pretty clear - I have a liability to pay back the compensation.

Let's hope the buyer understands my position.

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I am sure he will pay, he already has the coin on his website stating the price he paid you....he would have to alter that to ‘got it for free due to a mix-up with the post’ or something similar. I am sure he is an honourable man.

Jerry

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He wants me to repay the RM and provide proof before he will act. I'm not inclined to do that.

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He has no right to do that. You made the claim, he had been reimbursed. The disposition of the compensation has nothing to do with him.   
Does he really expect the coin for nothing? His honour is slipping.  Pete knows him well, perhaps he has some influence.  Basically he is accusing you of intent to criminally defraud the Royal Mail.

Jerry

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, jelida said:

He has no right to do that. You made the claim, he had been reimbursed. The disposition of the compensation has nothing to do with him.   
Does he really expect the coin for nothing? His honour is slipping.  Pete knows him well, perhaps he has some influence.  Basically he is accusing you of intent to criminally defraud the Royal Mail.

Jerry

In all due respect Jerry it has nothing to do with me ,same as any other business transaction its a matter for them to sort out and not for me to get involved.

Edited by PWA 1967

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, PWA 1967 said:

In all due respect Jerry it has nothing to do with me ,same as any other business transaction its a matter for them to sort out and not for someone else to get involved.

Fair enough. It is perfectly reasonable not to get involved. Sadly I do not know the man,  but I would certainly be prepared to try and arbitrate in a dispute between friends, as I have in the past elsewhere, including  professionally. After all, we’re all friends here.

Jerry

Edited by jelida

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1 hour ago, secret santa said:

He wants me to repay the RM and provide proof before he will act. I'm not inclined to do that.

So he wants you to pay for the coin that you sent him, before he pays you! He is deluded. I would politely ask him to send you the coin back. No deal.

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23 minutes ago, jelida said:

Fair enough. It is perfectly reasonable not to get involved. Sadly I do not know the man,  but I would certainly be prepared to try and arbitrate in a dispute between friends, as I have in the past elsewhere, including  professionally. After all, we’re all friends here.

Jerry

Perhaps i should of worded it better Jerry ,apart from sending a few emails i hardly know him and would be not any different than anyone else getting involved 👍

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Can I ask members not to voice personal opinions of the buyer in this thread - I don't want this transaction to be carried out in the media.

I will continue to brief progress as it is of interest and importance to anyone who collects/buys/sells coins.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, secret santa said:

I have just found the correspondence from the Royal Mail that accompanied their payment of compensation. The claim form that I completed confirms that "I undertake to advise Royal Mail Group Ltd immediately if any lost letters or parcels are subsequently traced, and to refund Royal Mail Group Ltd any monies paid in compensation for these items."

That's pretty clear - I have a liability to pay back the compensation.

On the other hand, since it was the RM who told you that the parcel had now been found, isn't it up to them to ask for repayment?

Edited by Peckris 2

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It wasn't the RM - it was the buyer, although there was some undocumented and undetailed discussion regarding the compensation when it was picked up by the buyer's neighbour. It's very important to read this thread carefully and get the facts absolutely straight.

But the RM have been clever in their use of words -  "I undertake to advise Royal Mail Group Ltd immediately if any lost letters or parcels are subsequently traced" puts the onus firmly on me once I'm made aware that a parcel has been traced.

But I do wonder how much of an offence it is to conceal the fact that I've been made aware ?

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4 minutes ago, secret santa said:

But I do wonder how much of an offence it is to conceal the fact that I've been made aware ?

Please don’t even think of it Richard, it is not for you to carry the legal risk here. The onus is clearly with the purchaser to pay or return the coin. I would make the request again, and give him some time to see sense. A solicitors letter may then help, but I would look at the small claims court as an inexpensive option, though I don’t offhand know what the cut off level is in terms of claim value. As a matter of principle it would not be right to let him have the coin for nothing,  especially given his expressed attitude.
 

Jerry

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56 minutes ago, secret santa said:

It wasn't the RM - it was the buyer, although there was some undocumented and undetailed discussion regarding the compensation when it was picked up by the buyer's neighbour. It's very important to read this thread carefully and get the facts absolutely straight.

But the RM have been clever in their use of words -  "I undertake to advise Royal Mail Group Ltd immediately if any lost letters or parcels are subsequently traced" puts the onus firmly on me once I'm made aware that a parcel has been traced.

But I do wonder how much of an offence it is to conceal the fact that I've been made aware ?

Is it not just easier as you have done nothing wrong Richard to just phone the Royal mail up ?.

Tell them exactly whats happened you dont have the item and what do you do next ,you will then know and have peace of mind exactly what the right procedure is.

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39 minutes ago, secret santa said:

It wasn't the RM - it was the buyer, although there was some undocumented and undetailed discussion regarding the compensation when it was picked up by the buyer's neighbour. It's very important to read this thread carefully and get the facts absolutely straight.

But the RM have been clever in their use of words -  "I undertake to advise Royal Mail Group Ltd immediately if any lost letters or parcels are subsequently traced" puts the onus firmly on me once I'm made aware that a parcel has been traced.

But I do wonder how much of an offence it is to conceal the fact that I've been made aware ?

Well that's another interesting theoretical conundrum, as quite possibly many buyers would have just kept quiet about (months later) receiving the coin. In which case you would still be in the dark. The buyer has presumably signed nothing which legally obliges him to disclose receipt of the coin to anybody. He has, however, in good faith, discharged his moral obligation to do so, which therefore, in turn, now legally obliges you to officially inform RM that the previously lost item has finally turned up and been delivered to its intended destination. What the (then) nuts and bolts of how you recompense RM are, is anyone's guess. I'd assume they'd write to you acknowledging your disclosure and outlining methods for repayment.  

I still think it would be extremely enlightening, purely from an academic point of view, to see what track and trace said with regard to that specific tracking number. If the buyer still has the envelope, he could maybe give you the number so you could check. Just a thought for what its worth. Wonder how it records the journey.

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Posted (edited)

With regard to contacting Royal Mail, I've just looked at their website, and like all large organisations these days, they do not make it easy. There doesn't appear to be an obvious e mail or physical address, so you're left with one option, to call them. That I really do not like, and I certainly wouldn't be calling them on a matter of any importance, unless the call was recorded dated and timed on my device, which I would then immediately back up to several other device destinations via e mail. That's because I simply do not trust them to get anything right. I work on the assumption that everybody I deal with, in any organisation, especially a public one, is a potential moron with comprehension, memory, language, literacy as well as integrity issues.

The "contact us" guidance on the site takes you round in circles. It is truly poor. For legal purposes and subsequent means of proof, I like things to be in writing be that e mail or ordinary letter. Ironically, if a physical address was available, you could send by next day tracked delivery as a means of proof of receipt !!!

Maybe there is a physical address, but if so, I certainly can't find it. 

ETA: Perhaps I'm hastily misjudging them. Maybe there is an address for disclosure on the claim form signed by Richard.  

  

Edited by 1949threepence

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1 hour ago, PWA 1967 said:

Tell them exactly whats happened you dont have the item and what do you do next ,you will then know and have peace of mind exactly what the right procedure is.

If they tell me to repay the £2.5K and I don't get the coin or the money from the buyer - that ain't peace of mind, Pete !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not about to end up £2.5K out of pocket when the buyer is currently £2.5K in profit.

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Posted (edited)
58 minutes ago, secret santa said:

If they tell me to repay the £2.5K and I don't get the coin or the money from the buyer - that ain't peace of mind, Pete !!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not about to end up £2.5K out of pocket when the buyer is currently £2.5K in profit.

Thats your call ,phone them up and ask them what happens and tell them your names Mr.xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

I am still unsure how you are responsible for paying the money back for something they delivered four months late and you dont have.

The question is who is responsible to pay the insurer you or the person who has it ?

If its you (Mr XXX ) you are closer to getting it resolved and just tell the buyer you can send him some evidence and he has to pay or return the coin.

If its the buyer ,you can move on 🙂

........................................

Reading further back the buyer has said if the insurance is returned he will pay you 👍

 

Edited by PWA 1967

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So anyway, for what it's worth, I've located a physical address for RM's corporate headquarters, and a proper e mail address. link to  

If I was Richard I'd send a next day tracked delivery letter direct to that address, disclosing the fact the coin has been found. Legal disclosure will have been made to Royal Mail and they will never be able to deny having received it. 

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2 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

Reading further back the buyer has said if the insurance is returned he will pay you 

No, he has not. He said that when I provide proof of repayment, he will "act on it" - you can't get much vaguer than that. I'm very loathe to open communications with the RM when the buyer is so vague and non-committal.

I'm going to wait until I get the legal position before any further action.

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2 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

The question is who is responsible to pay the insurer you or the person who has it ?

read my post above ! To save you doing that, I'll copy it here:

I have just found the correspondence from the Royal Mail that accompanied their payment of compensation. The claim form that I completed confirms that "I undertake to advise Royal Mail Group Ltd immediately if any lost letters or parcels are subsequently traced, and to refund Royal Mail Group Ltd any monies paid in compensation for these items."

That's pretty clear - I have a liability to pay back the compensation.

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11 minutes ago, secret santa said:

No, he has not. He said that when I provide proof of repayment, he will "act on it" - you can't get much vaguer than that. I'm very loathe to open communications with the RM when the buyer is so vague and non-committal.

I'm going to wait until I get the legal position before any further action.

Yes, quite right. It's a tough one and no mistake.  

Of course it could be that the buyer is just as worried about this £2.5k as you are. At the moment he holds the ace and doesn't want to lose advantage. Maybe he is concerned that if he pays you, you'll be £2.5k up on the deal, having never paid RM back, and then RM come after him as the individual holding the asset, hence he genuinely does want proof you have paid them. He may be unaware of the true legal position. I'm trying to think about the issue from his perspective.

It does strike me that the guy is essentially honest as - let's be frank here - the majority would have just kept schtum, in the hope that nothing further happened. That's one of the reasons why I think the tracking position is important. If it shows the item as delivered, and he's checked it, he's got more reason to be honest than if it was still shown in the local mail centre.

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Posted (edited)

He is certainly honest enough to have declared that the coin had re-surfaced, but as he presumably wanted to put it on his website -which he has done- and may want to sell it on in the future, it’s not really that remarkable, just normal behaviour. What is strange is that he is trying to impose on Richard conditions to be fulfilled before he will complete his side of the contract, which he has no right to do. He is not in any way a beneficiary of the insurance, and carries no liability in its legal settlement. The RM makes it clear that only one party can benefit from the claim, and Richard has done that. The responsibility to repay the compensation is Richards alone, and of no interest to the purchaser.

I am really amazed that what should be a good news story has become an issue causing stress to the party who has behaved entirely openly and correctly in his management of this transaction. It is so disheartening.

Jerry

Edited by jelida
To remove a ‘t’
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53 minutes ago, secret santa said:

No, he has not. He said that when I provide proof of repayment, he will "act on it" - you can't get much vaguer than that. I'm very loathe to open communications with the RM when the buyer is so vague and non-committal.

I'm going to wait until I get the legal position before any further action.

Sorry again i misunderstood and with regards contacting the RM was just something i thought may help ,but obviously not.

Hope it does not drag on to long for you and no doubt the legal position will be the best as you had mentioned before , i will keep out of a thread that i know nothing about 😀 

 

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