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I thought I had one of these - it has the die crack from the truncation but also a repair to the 1 and none to the first A of BRITANNIA. :huh:

 

 

1858 over.jpg

1858 over (1).jpg

1858 over (2).jpg

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1 hour ago, mrbadexample said:

I thought I had one of these - it has the die crack from the truncation but also a repair to the 1 and none to the first A of BRITANNIA. :huh:

 

 

 

 

Jon, that is definitely a Bramah 25c. 

Just because one indicator isn't there, doesn't rule it out. Bramah makes no mention of the A. 

They're not all going to be identical in every detail.    

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Dies are not necessarily swapped as pairs. Usually only the worn out/defective die will be replaced. That's how die links give the chronological sequence.

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2 hours ago, mrbadexample said:

I thought I had one of these - it has the die crack from the truncation but also a repair to the 1 and none to the first A of BRITANNIA. :huh:

The die flaw on your coin is actually in a slightly different location to the one on the coin I pictured earlier, making it a different obverse die, and  the 8/?’s are also different. If you count border teeth (beads) from the numeral 1 of the date to where the flaw meets the border you will see that the flaw is one bead further away on your coin. Different flaw positions = Different Dies.

In the set of pictures below, your coin is like the bottom two pictures, and the one pictured earlier (like Mike’s) is the top two pictures.  

It’s not entirely clear what Bramah had in mind when he documented his type 25c, but our two coins are definitely from different  obverse / reverse die pairings.

Re. Rob’s above comment, die flaws can be great in helping identify some of the rarer coins, and they also give us a ‘chronological sequence’ i.e. as the flaws develop. You will see that the obverse on your coin has a number of die flaws; these flaws are seen developing in the exact same locations when this obverse is paired with two other earlier reverses. The second of the 3 reverses paired with this obverse is the rare large rose large date variety. If you look for an 1858 large rose large date you will see these obverse flaws, albeit to a lesser extent, noting the same 1 over 1 in the date as well as the same 8/?.

Hope this helps, rather than confuses!   

Combsized.jpg

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21 minutes ago, alfnail said:

The die flaw on your coin is actually in a slightly different location to the one on the coin I pictured earlier, making it a different obverse die, and  the 8/?’s are also different. If you count border teeth (beads) from the numeral 1 of the date to where the flaw meets the border you will see that the flaw is one bead further away on your coin. Different flaw positions = Different Dies.

In the set of pictures below, your coin is like the bottom two pictures, and the one pictured earlier (like Mike’s) is the top two pictures.  

It’s not entirely clear what Bramah had in mind when he documented his type 25c, but our two coins are definitely from different  obverse / reverse die pairings.

Re. Rob’s above comment, die flaws can be great in helping identify some of the rarer coins, and they also give us a ‘chronological sequence’ i.e. as the flaws develop. You will see that the obverse on your coin has a number of die flaws; these flaws are seen developing in the exact same locations when this obverse is paired with two other earlier reverses. The second of the 3 reverses paired with this obverse is the rare large rose large date variety. If you look for an 1858 large rose large date you will see these obverse flaws, albeit to a lesser extent, noting the same 1 over 1 in the date as well as the same 8/?.

Hope this helps, rather than confuses!   

 

He only refers to the eight and nothing else.

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44 minutes ago, alfnail said:

The die flaw on your coin is actually in a slightly different location to the one on the coin I pictured earlier, making it a different obverse die, and  the 8/?’s are also different. If you count border teeth (beads) from the numeral 1 of the date to where the flaw meets the border you will see that the flaw is one bead further away on your coin. Different flaw positions = Different Dies.

In the set of pictures below, your coin is like the bottom two pictures, and the one pictured earlier (like Mike’s) is the top two pictures.  

It’s not entirely clear what Bramah had in mind when he documented his type 25c, but our two coins are definitely from different  obverse / reverse die pairings.

Re. Rob’s above comment, die flaws can be great in helping identify some of the rarer coins, and they also give us a ‘chronological sequence’ i.e. as the flaws develop. You will see that the obverse on your coin has a number of die flaws; these flaws are seen developing in the exact same locations when this obverse is paired with two other earlier reverses. The second of the 3 reverses paired with this obverse is the rare large rose large date variety. If you look for an 1858 large rose large date you will see these obverse flaws, albeit to a lesser extent, noting the same 1 over 1 in the date as well as the same 8/?.

Hope this helps, rather than confuses!   

 

The pictures certainly helped, thanks Ian. I see that although superficially similar the second 8 is quite different too.

Are these both considered 25c then? I'm scratching my head now. :lol:

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21 hours ago, 1949threepence said:

I believe this type is a single obverse / reverse die pairing;

Interestingly, my large rose penny seems to have this obverse including die crack.

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54 minutes ago, mrbadexample said:

The pictures certainly helped, thanks Ian. I see that although superficially similar the second 8 is quite different too.

Are these both considered 25c then? I'm scratching my head now. :lol:

Judge for yourself. This is how Bramah describes the 25c:-

Quote

 

25c. ALTERED DATE. O. - As the obv. of No. 25 but the last figure of date has been altered though it is not obvious from what. At left base of 8 is a knob, like the lower terminal of a 3 or a 5, protruding slightly inside the loop. Higher inside same loop, are two dots, as the remains of a line. But on right side of 8, between its loops, is a shallow vertical stroke, irreconcilable with a 3 or a 5    

R. - As type.

 

 

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55 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Interestingly, my large rose penny seems to have this obverse including die crack.

Quote

I believe this type is a single obverse / reverse die pairing;

It was Ian who said that yesterday at 4:51pm.

Sometimes, for whatever reason, the software on here will quote someone other than the originator, as having made the statement. In this case me. It's done it across me a couple of times as well.   

Edited by 1949threepence

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53 minutes ago, secret santa said:

Interestingly, my large rose penny seems to have this obverse including die crack.

Yes, no surprise Richard.

This 8/? obverse (with the 1/1) has 3 reverse pairings, the second being the large rose large date variety.

The obverse starts off with no die flaws and then progresses as follows:-

First flaw starts above A of VICTORIA  and then develops through the bottom of A towards Victoria's head. 

The flaw at the queen's truncation starts afterwards, I think around the same time as another flaw through the base of the letters OR of VICTORIA

All of those are seen to develop on examples of Large Rose, (Reverse 2) seen paired with this obverse

The same flaws are then seen on a later reverse (3) without the large rose, but flaws are more developed (timeline).

Hopefully the pictures below will clarify.

P.S. The other 8/? reverse we have been discussing I think has only a single reverse paired with it.......i.e. the one with the repaired A. So I prefer to think as 2 different types, albeit very similar.    

Flaws1Sized.jpg

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The flaw at front of truncation, bottom left in above set, isn't particularly clear on that example, so here's another one, again on large rose reverse, where flaw has developed a little more......still not as much as it has by time reverse moves to reverse 3  (bottom right picture in above set) 

FLAW 2.jpg

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1 hour ago, 1949threepence said:

Higher inside same loop, are two dots, as the remains of a line.

Hi Mike, It's this bit of Bramah's quote which I find particularly difficult. Not sure I have ever seen anything which resembles 2 dots in lower loop of 8.

If any member wants a decent copy of Bramah then please message me, I do have 1 spare, but will be asking for close to going rate!

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2 hours ago, alfnail said:

Hi Mike, It's this bit of Bramah's quote which I find particularly difficult. Not sure I have ever seen anything which resembles 2 dots in lower loop of 8.

If any member wants a decent copy of Bramah then please message me, I do have 1 spare, but will be asking for close to going rate!

Hi Ian - no I can't see the two dots higher inside the loop on either of my specimens. I just assumed I hadn't got sufficiently powerful magnifiers.

Bramah's book is very difficult to get and most that come up for sale are tatty ex library copies, with library inserts. They're also extremely expensive. The only one on Amazon at the moment is described as "fair" and offered for £232.65.   

 

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Ian, you must seriously consider making all your many hours of work on copper pennies available to the numismatic community in some way.

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Thanks Richard, but I am not sure I will ever be in a position to do much more than posts on Predecimal. I had a few years retirement where I was able to spend a lot of time on the hobby, but I am no longer in that position. I could do something like retrieving all my Predecimal copper penny posts and putting them all in one place in a new thread, which could be added to if anything new and relevant needs posting, by myself or other members.

We have already discussed book, CD, website options but I am not about to embark on a venture like that myself. The best place to describe copper Victorian pennies is possibly on your own site, and you are most welcome to grab any of my material and put it on there if you wish. I have no desire to attempt to profit from my material, and am more than happy to share for the benefit of the numismatic community.

The main problem that I see with any Victorian Copper penny book (or website) is deciding what the sub-varieties should be for each year, and where to draw the line with respect to things such as legend repairs, date differences, colon positions, various dots. A new book (site) should in my opinion start with an introduction about all these different 'features', many of which will have already been mentioned by Gouby or Bramah, and a brand new list (with new naming convention) of each coin which the author considers to be a variety. The naming convention would of course have to allow for any new discovery to slot in neatly. Pictures of the varieties for each year can then follow on, with some mention of rarity.

As I have said before, I think that discussion of what is, and what isn't, a sub- variety for each 'feature' that is seen should perhaps first take place on a forum such as this. Personally I would not be happy to presume that I knew enough to forge ahead without spending a good deal of time involving others. Also, I would need to examine coins from other collectors in order to picture all the features to the consistent standard I would like. e.g. I don't have many 1843's, 1849's, 1856's and 1860's in my own collection!

 

    

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I would certainly be very happy to add many more of the variations that you have posted previously (bringing the posts together would be ideal) and I agree that it would be perfect if a new naming convention could be agreed among a few specialists, perhaps along the lines of CP9999AA as per Gouby's bronze penny convention.

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Also an updated idea of the relative scarcity pertaining to different varieties, something I don't think either Peck or Bramah got quite right in every case. The 1854/3 being an obvious example. 

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1858 Large rose .

Although this is a Large date its by far the best one i have found in five years and rare in UNC grade.

Victoria 1858 MS 63 Slab reverse s - large rose.jpg

Edited by PWA 1967
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51 minutes ago, alfnail said:

That's lovely Pete, did you buy it?

No the seller on eBay gave it me 😂 👍

 

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3 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

No the seller on eBay gave it me 😂 👍

Pete, could you mail me pics please. Thanks

R

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6 hours ago, PWA 1967 said:

No the seller on eBay gave it me 😂 👍

 

Extraordinarily GENEROUS Seller..

Unlike most that you find .....

 

 

Seriously, a lovely coin...

There was a high grade slabbed example on ebay that became unavailable about a month or two ago.... I was watching it, but it was out of my price range.....

Was that this specimen???

 

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56 minutes ago, Bronze & Copper Collector said:

Extraordinarily GENEROUS Seller..

Unlike most that you find .....

 

 

Seriously, a lovely coin...

There was a high grade slabbed example on ebay that became unavailable about a month or two ago.... I was watching it, but it was out of my price range.....

Was that this specimen???

 

I doubt very much there was another one on Gary ,so would say yes 🙂

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On 10/14/2020 at 3:00 AM, PWA 1967 said:

1858 Large rose .

Although this is a Large date its by far the best one i have found in five years and rare in UNC grade.

Victoria 1858 MS 63 Slab reverse s - large rose.jpg

Very very nice. Neat capture.

ETA: Have you got a pic of the obverse as well?

Edited by 1949threepence
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