Unusual 1718 Halfpenny.

[Michael-Roo]

Hi all.

I'd very much welcome your thoughts on this one.

A 1718 dump halfpenny displaying three distinct anomalies.

First: No stops on the obverse. A well documented variety, but certainly scarce.

Second: E over B in REX (or possibly even B instead of E). This is unrecorded in Peck, and the only reference I can find is an example listed in a St. James auction (similar grade to mine but showing some corrosion). There isn't one in the Nicholson collection.

Third: The coin is on a broad flan. All my other 1717 and 1718 halfpennies are approximately 26mm in diameter. This one is 27.5mm.

Have any of you seen anything similar?

Thanks very much.

Edited November 15, 2014 by Michael-Roo

[copper123]

To be honest it's to too low a grade to be sure its a no stops obverse coin , i think you will struggle to get more than double what an ord 1718 would fetch in that grade - most variety collectors want higher grade coins than that

[Michael-Roo]

I'm not interested in selling so value isn't an issue. How about the E/B and broad flan. Have you come across these anomalies?

Ta.

[Michael-Roo]

I think, in my attempt to edit the post, I've messed up the attachment. Here it is again.

[Coinery]

I think, in my attempt to edit the post, I've messed up the attachment. Here it is again.

1718-No-Stops.jpg

That's a really interesting coin! It looks to me as if there's a bottom serif sticking out the bottom loop of the B-shape. If you look at the E in George, that also exhibits B-like qualities, but looks more E-like?

The whole die and/or punches look very tired. So, is it an E with a damaged/curved bottom bar, or a B punch refashioned (for God knows what reason) to make an emergency E? Or B/E?

Food for thought!

[scott]

going with die wear and an E

[Michael-Roo]

Cheers Stuart.

I find this one fascinating, so I'm really pleased to get your expert input. You're right. The the condition isn't all that bad, its the punch/strike which looks a little tired. Doesn't explain the broad flan though. Very odd. Have you seen another?

Thanks again.

[Michael-Roo]

going with die wear and an E

Hi Scott. What do you mean. 'With an E'?

[Michael-Roo]

Here's a link to the St. James coin.

http://stjauctions.com/assets/applets/SJA13part5.pdf

[Michael-Roo]

I think, in my attempt to edit the post, I've messed up the attachment. Here it is again.

1718-No-Stops.jpg

That's a really interesting coin! It looks to me as if there's a bottom serif sticking out the bottom loop of the B-shape. If you look at the E in George, that also exhibits B-like qualities, but looks more E-like?

The whole die and/or punches look very tired. So, is it an E with a damaged/curved bottom bar, or a B punch refashioned (for God knows what reason) to make an emergency E? Or B/E?

Food for thought!

The serifs of the E in Georgius do indeed display unusual wee spreads and bends but the corresponding letter in Rex has strong 'B' loops. Exactly the same as the St. James coin.

[Coinery]

I think, in my attempt to edit the post, I've messed up the attachment. Here it is again.

1718-No-Stops.jpg

That's a really interesting coin! It looks to me as if there's a bottom serif sticking out the bottom loop of the B-shape. If you look at the E in George, that also exhibits B-like qualities, but looks more E-like?

The whole die and/or punches look very tired. So, is it an E with a damaged/curved bottom bar, or a B punch refashioned (for God knows what reason) to make an emergency E? Or B/E?

Food for thought!

The serifs of the E in Georgius do indeed display unusual wee spreads and bends but the corresponding letter in Rex has strong 'B' loops. Exactly the same as the St. James coin.

They do look similar, I'm looking forward to getting the laptop out and taking a closer look. The iPhone isn't a kind tool for those sort of things!

[scott]

I mean it is the die wear making the E look like a B

[Michael-Roo]

Scott, you're usually spot on, but this time I would beg to differ. Look at these two cropped images. The first is the E in Georgius. The second the E in Rex. They are completely different. The second has no trace of an upper horizontal bar or serif.

Edit:

I have no idea why the second image has appeared here upside down. Its the right way up on my desk top!

Edited November 15, 2014 by Michael-Roo

[Coinery]

Scott, you're usually spot on, but this time I would beg to differ. Look at these two cropped images. The first is the E in Georgius. The second the E in Rex. They are completely different. The second has no trace of an upper horizontal bar or serif.

1718-No-Stops copy.jpg

1718-No-Stops copy 2.jpg

Edit:

I have no idea why the second image has appeared here upside down. Its the right way up on my desk top!

It would be difficult to argue that that isn't a B in REX I have to say, especially when looking at the bigger images side by side! Have you checked for a die match with the St James coin?

[Michael-Roo]

I have to be honest Stuart, die matching always leaves me a bit puzzled. They all look the same to me .

However, I'll go back now and look at them side by side. Any thoughts re the broad flan?

[Michael-Roo]

Just had a look.

Maybe a few minor differences? The ties certainly seem to be different. Possibly a slight difference in the placing of the letters too? The border on my coin is obviously much broader too.

[Michael-Roo]

Here's a photo of the reverse. Sorry, its not the greatest pic ever uploaded on the forum. However, I thought it worth adding to show how prominent the stop after Britannia is compared with the lack of stops on the obverse. Also: look at that border/rim. This is a dump halfpenny. Have you ever seen one so broad?!?!

[Rob]

The biggest diameter piece I have is also 27.5. Although they are not supposed to have been struck in a collar, mine has remarkably sharp edges for one struck without restraint. Nicholson 172 applies in this case.

[seuk]

From the photo both looks as E's to me. Punches can be quite impossible to compare when the condition is poor. If a B punch was used it should probably look like the B of Britannia as used for the reverse.

[scott]

I would know in hand, but having lots of coins in all grades i would edge to say it is an E, unless the dies match exactly.

and yea, they come in different sizes from what i have seen.

I happen to have this example of 1718, seems similar, and in hand I hand to me, just no obverse stops, not enough there for me to say anything other then E (goinging off the first obverse E, it looks more like an R)

Edited November 15, 2014 by scott

[Michael-Roo]

From the photo both looks as E's to me. Punches can be quite impossible to compare when the condition is poor. If a B punch was used it should probably look like the B of Britannia as used for the reverse.

The E/B in Rex does indeed match the B in Britannia. Please compare with the St. James auction coin.

[Michael-Roo]

The biggest diameter piece I have is also 27.5. Although they are not supposed to have been struck in a collar, mine has remarkably sharp edges for one struck without restraint. Nicholson 172 applies in this case.

Yes. Thank you Rob. I see the Nicholson 172 is the same diameter. Mine is much more 'irregular' in shape though? Do you have anything to add regarding the no stops and E over B?

[scott]

I'm sure i can see part of the central part of the E there, the letter shape to me is E, but with die wear joining the central to the outer.

if you look at the larger part you can see there is no curve it the kick at the end of the E and then a line linking directly to the middle. so although it looks like a B, if I had it, i would still say it was an E

[Michael-Roo]

Thanks for your input Scott.

[Coinery]

Just another hypothesis, but I wonder whether the bottom of the E punch has broken off, and they've mocked it up on the die with a fix?

In the second E of George, is it just possible that what we are seeing is a G 'repairing' the broken E (effectively an F)? Could this also be replicated in the E of Rex?