A strange Elizabeth 1 shilling v worn

[scott]

done some digging on this, and found out why i couldn't identify it properly

if you read the Legends around the edge where it is visible, you will see clearly they are Tudor, however just where the clip is, there is ZAB, and the legend on the other side matches ORE (IVTORE) opposite that OSV (POSVI) and also the VM of DEVM:AD

however the curious thing is here, the only central detail i can see is a shield BUT as you can see the shield is on the same side as ELIZABETH

from what i know of this is it came with some other silvers, and by the bag it came in, they were dirty. i have no reason to believe this is modern, and that big massive chizel dent in the middle is perhaps a test of silver rom the time?

however this doesn't explain what the thing that looks like a bird is as it doesnt look like part of the shield cross design.

Edited October 22, 2012 by scott

[Peckris]

done some digging on this, and found out why i couldn't identify it properly

if you read the Legends around the edge where it is visible, you will see clearly they are Tudor, however just where the clip is, there is ZAB, and the legend on the other side matches ORE (IVTORE) opposite that OSV (POSVI) and also the VM of DEVM:AD

however the curious thing is here, the only central detail i can see is a shield BUT as you can see the shield is on the same side as ELIZABETH

from what i know of this is it came with some other silvers, and by the bag it came in, they were dirty. i have no reason to believe this is modern, and that big massive chizel dent in the middle is perhaps a test of silver rom the time?

however this doesn't explain what the thing that looks like a bird is as it doesnt look like part of the shield cross design.

Where are you getting the shield from? I can't see it. Nor any design elements at all.

[Coinery]

done some digging on this, and found out why i couldn't identify it properly

if you read the Legends around the edge where it is visible, you will see clearly they are Tudor, however just where the clip is, there is ZAB, and the legend on the other side matches ORE (IVTORE) opposite that OSV (POSVI) and also the VM of DEVM:AD

however the curious thing is here, the only central detail i can see is a shield BUT as you can see the shield is on the same side as ELIZABETH

from what i know of this is it came with some other silvers, and by the bag it came in, they were dirty. i have no reason to believe this is modern, and that big massive chizel dent in the middle is perhaps a test of silver rom the time?

however this doesn't explain what the thing that looks like a bird is as it doesnt look like part of the shield cross design.

The legend DEVM only appears on Elizabeth's hammered English crowns and halfcrowns, and also on the Irish coins. It also appears on the milled coinage.

I believe this is a third coinage Irish shilling of Elizabeth, which had a shield on the obverse. The mintmarks for this coinage were the trefoil, star, and martlet. So, if there's a martlet on it the obverse is BCW Irish Shilling MR-1, which is happily only paired with one known reverse MR-a (which would've had a crowned harp [3] on it). Altogether a BCW Irish Shilling MR-1:a

This is of course presuming you're happy with the dimensions of it as a shilling. There were marlet sixpences too.

I should probably add, it does look shilling dimensions, and the martlet is at the top of the 'shield' side, just after RE:

Also, the crowned harp on the the reverse would be orientated with the flat edge at the top!

Edited October 23, 2012 by Coinery

[scott]

I was using coins market values from 1999, this is a bit more expansive on hammered then the other books, also has actual size pictures so, put it on top of it, and there you go so yes it is a shilling.

i did look at Irish issues in there, but there was nothing on this design, hence why i didn't see it.

right so, Eliazabeth 1st shilling 24th may 1602- 24th march 1603?

Can't find values for this issue either.

[Coinery]

15th May 1602 - 20th May 1603

But with the 3rd harp, again assuming you've got the only known die-pairing, you're looking at a 1602 shilling!

[Peter]

I was using coins market values from 1999, this is a bit more expansive on hammered then the other books, also has actual size pictures so, put it on top of it, and there you go so yes it is a shilling.

i did look at Irish issues in there, but there was nothing on this design, hence why i didn't see it.

right so, Eliazabeth 1st shilling 24th may 1602- 24th march 1603?

Can't find values for this issue either.

Scott in that condition the value is the silver

Good practice in deciphering hammered though.

[scott]

not much silver either they were debased >.>

only known die pairing? to make it exactly 1602? what makes it 1603 then?

Edited October 23, 2012 by scott

[Rob]

not much silver either they were debased >.>

only known die pairing? to make it exactly 1602? what makes it 1603 then?

24th March 1603 is 24th March 1602/3 old style. New Year's Day was 25th. The use of dual systems where not clearly indicated can seriously mislead until you realise what is meant.

[Coinery]

not much silver either they were debased >.>

only known die pairing? to make it exactly 1602? what makes it 1603 then?

What I meant by clarifying 'only known' die-pairing, is that I didn't want to be presumptuous about it because, whilst BCW present only one, it doesn't mean that there IS only one! In a very short time I've found a few pairings not recorded in their book.

I'm thinking it's likely that there is just the one pairing, and even more likely that your's isn't anything other than the known type.

On reflection, it could've been a little side-tracking to mention the third harp. In some instances the punches used to make up the die, can precede say, for example, the end of a privy mark, and this can be useful on occasions for more closely dating an undated coin. The punch of the third harp appears on 1601 and 1602 coins, the trefoil star AND the martlet.

Edited October 23, 2012 by Coinery

[scott]

ok got all that, i can't find an example to compare it to, can only find trefoil ones.

can find lots of pennies with marlet though.