1699 HALFPENNY date in legend

[del]

hi all,this 1699 halfpenny seems to have an L instead of I in TERTIVS.do my peepers deceive me?has a coin like this been listed anywhere.any thoughts would be appreciated

[Rob]

hi all,this 1699 halfpenny seems to have an L instead of I in TERTIVS.do my peepers deceive me?has a coin like this been listed anywhere.any thoughts would be appreciated

It's a bit dark to say, but the pit immediately next to it makes an id difficult. Pitting, corrosion lumps etc make false identification easy. Please post lighter pictures if possible. Thanks. William III copper is littered with legend errors, so it's not impossible, just that the quality of the strike and the typical condition of the coins leads a lot of people to see errors where they don't exist. This is particularly relevant on ebay where every other coin seems to be a 'rare, unrecorded variety', so start out as a sceptic and be prepared to change your mind.

[Peckris]

hi all,this 1699 halfpenny seems to have an L instead of I in TERTIVS.do my peepers deceive me?has a coin like this been listed anywhere.any thoughts would be appreciated

Hmm, not sure. There is some damage to the edge of the coin at that point, but superficially it does look like 'L' upside down. There is an I over V variety, and it could be that what looks like the horizontal stroke of the L could be an extended serif of the top of a V joining the serif on the I. Do be aware that there are many lettering errors on William coins due to the scale of the Great Recoinage going on, and the low priority afforded to copper.

[Coinery]

hi all,this 1699 halfpenny seems to have an L instead of I in TERTIVS.do my peepers deceive me?has a coin like this been listed anywhere.any thoughts would be appreciated

Could be interesting but, as always, close-ups with better images are needed, especially with a coin that's low-grade. Could be a 'T' ?TERITVS or any of a number of possibilities. There appears to be a second leg (?shadow) where the 'T' (as in fourth letter) should be, suggesting other potential rotational variables.

You're going to have to start experimenting with the macro settings on your compact.

[Rob]

hi all,this 1699 halfpenny seems to have an L instead of I in TERTIVS.do my peepers deceive me?has a coin like this been listed anywhere.any thoughts would be appreciated

Hmm, not sure. There is some damage to the edge of the coin at that point, but superficially it does look like 'L' upside down. There is an I over V variety, and it could be that what looks like the horizontal stroke of the L could be an extended serif of the top of a V joining the serif on the I. Do be aware that there are many lettering errors on William coins due to the scale of the Great Recoinage going on, and the low priority afforded to copper.

I over V in TERTIVS is probably the most unambiguous of the legend errors as it is clear all the way down the grades. It is also 1700 and not 1699. This is the Peck plate coin for P702. Apologies for the crappy photography - the camera was in autodefocus mode however hard I tried.

Edited September 10, 2012 by Rob

[del]

hi all,this 1699 halfpenny seems to have an L instead of I in TERTIVS.do my peepers deceive me?has a coin like this been listed anywhere.any thoughts would be appreciated

Could be interesting but, as always, close-ups with better images are needed, especially with a coin that's low-grade. Could be a 'T' ?TERITVS or any of a number of possibilities. There appears to be a second leg (?shadow) where the 'T' (as in fourth letter) should be, suggesting other potential rotational variables.

You're going to have to start experimenting with the macro settings on your compact.

firstly thanks for all input.ive taken another scan and lightened it as much as i can.also scanned it from a different angle.to me it now looks like an I over T

[Peter]

hi all,this 1699 halfpenny seems to have an L instead of I in TERTIVS.do my peepers deceive me?has a coin like this been listed anywhere.any thoughts would be appreciated

Could be interesting but, as always, close-ups with better images are needed, especially with a coin that's low-grade. Could be a 'T' ?TERITVS or any of a number of possibilities. There appears to be a second leg (?shadow) where the 'T' (as in fourth letter) should be, suggesting other potential rotational variables.

You're going to have to start experimenting with the macro settings on your compact.

firstly thanks for all input.ive taken another scan and lightened it as much as i can.also scanned it from a different angle.to me it now looks like an I over T

Hi Del

I think Rob is right about the quality control of early copper.I've got hundreds of the same date and they tend to differ.Even Colin Cooke never got to the bottom of it.

[Coinery]

hi all,this 1699 halfpenny seems to have an L instead of I in TERTIVS.do my peepers deceive me?has a coin like this been listed anywhere.any thoughts would be appreciated

Could be interesting but, as always, close-ups with better images are needed, especially with a coin that's low-grade. Could be a 'T' ?TERITVS or any of a number of possibilities. There appears to be a second leg (?shadow) where the 'T' (as in fourth letter) should be, suggesting other potential rotational variables.

You're going to have to start experimenting with the macro settings on your compact.

firstly thanks for all input.ive taken another scan and lightened it as much as i can.also scanned it from a different angle.to me it now looks like an I over T

looking at the serifs on the previous 'T' it's more likely a 'T' than an 'L'! However, I can just about 'imagine' an 'I' if I really try, especially when I factor in the possible flattening of the top of the 'I', and note the right hand serif is not clear, and look at the corrosion pit at the left hand serif, so not conclusive without a really good close-up! Possibly a 'T' though...TERTTVS, different!

[Peckris]

hi all,this 1699 halfpenny seems to have an L instead of I in TERTIVS.do my peepers deceive me?has a coin like this been listed anywhere.any thoughts would be appreciated

Could be interesting but, as always, close-ups with better images are needed, especially with a coin that's low-grade. Could be a 'T' ?TERITVS or any of a number of possibilities. There appears to be a second leg (?shadow) where the 'T' (as in fourth letter) should be, suggesting other potential rotational variables.

You're going to have to start experimenting with the macro settings on your compact.

firstly thanks for all input.ive taken another scan and lightened it as much as i can.also scanned it from a different angle.to me it now looks like an I over T

I see the underlying right hand leg of a V to the right of the I?

[Rob]

hi all,this 1699 halfpenny seems to have an L instead of I in TERTIVS.do my peepers deceive me?has a coin like this been listed anywhere.any thoughts would be appreciated

Could be interesting but, as always, close-ups with better images are needed, especially with a coin that's low-grade. Could be a 'T' ?TERITVS or any of a number of possibilities. There appears to be a second leg (?shadow) where the 'T' (as in fourth letter) should be, suggesting other potential rotational variables.

You're going to have to start experimenting with the macro settings on your compact.

firstly thanks for all input.ive taken another scan and lightened it as much as i can.also scanned it from a different angle.to me it now looks like an I over T

I see the underlying right hand leg of a V to the right of the I?

No, it's just a straight TIVS.

[del]

hi all,this 1699 halfpenny seems to have an L instead of I in TERTIVS.do my peepers deceive me?has a coin like this been listed anywhere.any thoughts would be appreciated

Could be interesting but, as always, close-ups with better images are needed, especially with a coin that's low-grade. Could be a 'T' ?TERITVS or any of a number of possibilities. There appears to be a second leg (?shadow) where the 'T' (as in fourth letter) should be, suggesting other potential rotational variables.

You're going to have to start experimenting with the macro settings on your compact.

firstly thanks for all input.ive taken another scan and lightened it as much as i can.also scanned it from a different angle.to me it now looks like an I over T

I see the underlying right hand leg of a V to the right of the I?

No, it's just a straight TIVS.

the L or T is more visible on the coin itself than the pictures portray.whats the next step can i send the coin to someone to look at and if so who,or would you just forget about it.

[Coinery]

hi all,this 1699 halfpenny seems to have an L instead of I in TERTIVS.do my peepers deceive me?has a coin like this been listed anywhere.any thoughts would be appreciated

Could be interesting but, as always, close-ups with better images are needed, especially with a coin that's low-grade. Could be a 'T' ?TERITVS or any of a number of possibilities. There appears to be a second leg (?shadow) where the 'T' (as in fourth letter) should be, suggesting other potential rotational variables.

You're going to have to start experimenting with the macro settings on your compact.

firstly thanks for all input.ive taken another scan and lightened it as much as i can.also scanned it from a different angle.to me it now looks like an I over T

I see the underlying right hand leg of a V to the right of the I?

No, it's just a straight TIVS.

the L or T is more visible on the coin itself than the pictures portray.whats the next step can i send the coin to someone to look at and if so who,or would you just forget about it.

I'd happily photograph it and put the exploded images up here for others to see? I'd be surprised if a final judgement couldn't be made then. Just a suggestion (insured postage each way - paid by you, of course )!

[del]

hi all,this 1699 halfpenny seems to have an L instead of I in TERTIVS.do my peepers deceive me?has a coin like this been listed anywhere.any thoughts would be appreciated

Could be interesting but, as always, close-ups with better images are needed, especially with a coin that's low-grade. Could be a 'T' ?TERITVS or any of a number of possibilities. There appears to be a second leg (?shadow) where the 'T' (as in fourth letter) should be, suggesting other potential rotational variables.

You're going to have to start experimenting with the macro settings on your compact.

firstly thanks for all input.ive taken another scan and lightened it as much as i can.also scanned it from a different angle.to me it now looks like an I over T

I see the underlying right hand leg of a V to the right of the I?

No, it's just a straight TIVS.

the L or T is more visible on the coin itself than the pictures portray.whats the next step can i send the coin to someone to look at and if so who,or would you just forget about it.

I'd happily photograph it and put the exploded images up here for others to see? I'd be surprised if a final judgement couldn't be made then. Just a suggestion (insured postage each way - paid by you, of course )!

sounds like a plan at least we'll know for sure.send me contact details and will post to you....many many thanks

[Rob]

Letters in this time were often compounded from a selection of punches. The most obvious one is the A-V where the crossbar is added afterwards to make the A. F plus a bottom bar is another. P plus a straight line a third example. G can be made starting with a C and a C can be made from a defective O. The possibilities are endless, so just because a letter isn't perfectly formed doesn't mean it is an error. I and 1 can be interchanged too. I have a 1700 halfpenny with a farthing I used for the 1. There is a good few years worth of research available for anyone interested.

[Coinery]

So...I think the conclusions will now be, well, conclusive! Here are two close-up photos, taken with the light angled differently to best show the 'ups and downs' of the contours in the region of the 'I'! The diagonal line to the left appeared convex in some shots, but is actually a concave 'gouge,' which I think could've easily been mistaken for the left leg of a 'V'?

Judgements, please, would be very much appreciated!

[Coinery]

Thanks for the trust AND privilege, Del!

[Rob]

So...I think the conclusions will now be, well, conclusive! Here are two close-up photos, taken with the light angled differently to best show the 'ups and downs' of the contours in the region of the 'I'! The diagonal line to the left appeared convex in some shots, but is actually a concave 'gouge,' which I think could've easily been mistaken for the left leg of a 'V'?

Judgements, please, would be very much appreciated!

Nothing to suggest it is anything other than an I

[Coinery]

Nothing to suggest it is anything other than an I

'Fraid so! Clearly so!

[Peckris]

So...I think the conclusions will now be, well, conclusive! Here are two close-up photos, taken with the light angled differently to best show the 'ups and downs' of the contours in the region of the 'I'! The diagonal line to the left appeared convex in some shots, but is actually a concave 'gouge,' which I think could've easily been mistaken for the left leg of a 'V'?

Judgements, please, would be very much appreciated!

Nothing to suggest it is anything other than an I

Agreed. The serifs on the cross bar of the T are angled, while the "serifs" here are right angles.

[Coinery]

So...I think the conclusions will now be, well, conclusive! Here are two close-up photos, taken with the light angled differently to best show the 'ups and downs' of the contours in the region of the 'I'! The diagonal line to the left appeared convex in some shots, but is actually a concave 'gouge,' which I think could've easily been mistaken for the left leg of a 'V'?

Judgements, please, would be very much appreciated!

Nothing to suggest it is anything other than an I

Agreed. The serifs on the cross bar of the T are angled, while the "serifs" here are right angles.

You can also clearly see the top edge of the 'I' well below the 'top (bottom) edge' of where the proposed 'L' would HAVE to be!

[del]

firstly thanks coinery for taking pics.I think we can now put an end to this discussion,but fear not I shall return with another.Thanks everyone for input.

[scott]

great fun these williams.

I like looking at other examples of the same date to see what i have, you can get lucky.

have positivly IDed a william using other examples, and showing other details of the coin i couldn't see properly to positivly ID until afterwards.

try having a look through the stuff on Colin cookes site, he has sold a few Williams in collections shown on there, there are quite a lot of pictures etc to look at.