1850 shilling

[DaveG38]

All I know is that mine's in VF condition, but in my experience its not as difficult to find as the 1854 and as for the 1853 groat, well I don't think I've ever seen one in any condition.

[Nick]

I am partially enlightened, thanks ... does anyone know how many 1850 shillings were minted then? (roughly?)

No, but definitely fewer than the 685,000 figure that is stated in ESC and Davies. It is by far the rarest date of the Victorian shillings.

Anyone like to make an educated guess how many are left? 2 or 3 dozen perhaps with the number in high grade in low single digits?

Unfortunately the phrase "educated guess" begs more questions than it answers. There are just too many imponderables :

- First, the stated mintage figure which as we all know is misleading and probably includes very many dated 1849 (approximately the same mintage but not rare at all)

- second, the number that might have been swallowed up after 1920 or 1947 when the banks withdrew silver

- third, the distorting effect of commoner dates being now less common in relation to 1850 as a result of collectors absorbing 99.9% of all remaining 1850s since the 1950s, but at the same time absorbing a much lower % of common dates, e.g. from 1966-71, 1980, etc

- fourth, the lack of any Freeman-like survey AFAIK to base any educated guesswork on

It's probably true to say "we'll never know".

Do you know whether they also minted in advance eg minted 1851 coins in 1850? I'm guessing they probably would in the situation where the last die of a particular year broke/wore out near the end of the year.

[Gollum]

I am partially enlightened, thanks ... does anyone know how many 1850 shillings were minted then? (roughly?)

No, but definitely fewer than the 685,000 figure that is stated in ESC and Davies. It is by far the rarest date of the Victorian shillings.

Anyone like to make an educated guess how many are left? 2 or 3 dozen perhaps with the number in high grade in low single digits?

Unfortunately the phrase "educated guess" begs more questions than it answers. There are just too many imponderables :

- First, the stated mintage figure which as we all know is misleading and probably includes very many dated 1849 (approximately the same mintage but not rare at all)

- second, the number that might have been swallowed up after 1920 or 1947 when the banks withdrew silver

- third, the distorting effect of commoner dates being now less common in relation to 1850 as a result of collectors absorbing 99.9% of all remaining 1850s since the 1950s, but at the same time absorbing a much lower % of common dates, e.g. from 1966-71, 1980, etc

- fourth, the lack of any Freeman-like survey AFAIK to base any educated guesswork on

It's probably true to say "we'll never know".

Do you know whether they also minted in advance eg minted 1851 coins in 1850? I'm guessing they probably would in the situation where the last die of a particular year broke/wore out near the end of the year.

I did read somewhere that they did that to use up an old die or such,I think it was in coin world.

[Nick]

I am partially enlightened, thanks ... does anyone know how many 1850 shillings were minted then? (roughly?)

No, but definitely fewer than the 685,000 figure that is stated in ESC and Davies. It is by far the rarest date of the Victorian shillings.

Anyone like to make an educated guess how many are left? 2 or 3 dozen perhaps with the number in high grade in low single digits?

Unfortunately the phrase "educated guess" begs more questions than it answers. There are just too many imponderables :

- First, the stated mintage figure which as we all know is misleading and probably includes very many dated 1849 (approximately the same mintage but not rare at all)

- second, the number that might have been swallowed up after 1920 or 1947 when the banks withdrew silver

- third, the distorting effect of commoner dates being now less common in relation to 1850 as a result of collectors absorbing 99.9% of all remaining 1850s since the 1950s, but at the same time absorbing a much lower % of common dates, e.g. from 1966-71, 1980, etc

- fourth, the lack of any Freeman-like survey AFAIK to base any educated guesswork on

It's probably true to say "we'll never know".

Do you know whether they also minted in advance eg minted 1851 coins in 1850? I'm guessing they probably would in the situation where the last die of a particular year broke/wore out near the end of the year.

I did read somewhere that they did that to use up an old die or such,I think it was in coin world.

That's the opposite situation that Peck mentioned. My question was whether any coins were struck in a year with the following year's date.

[Rob]

That's the opposite situation that Peck mentioned. My question was whether any coins were struck in a year with the following year's date.

Unlikely becasue that would risk having predated coins in circulation which by definition should be rejected by the person paid if they are half awake.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Rob

[Gollum]

What about all the ones they struck for Edward who abdcicated, werent they pre dated or such as they had to melt them down ?.

[Nick]

That's the opposite situation that Peck mentioned. My question was whether any coins were struck in a year with the following year's date.

Unlikely becasue that would risk having predated coins in circulation which by definition should be rejected by the person paid if they are half awake.

Ok, that sounds plausible. Surely though, they would at least have made a headstart producing some dies for the new year? Or wouldn't they know what the demand would be at that point.

[Nick]

Found a mention in ESC, Appendix I.

"Also in some years coins have been struck with the following year's date, but have been included in the total of coins issued in the year they were made."

[Peckris]

Do you know whether they also minted in advance eg minted 1851 coins in 1850? I'm guessing they probably would in the situation where the last die of a particular year broke/wore out near the end of the year.

Unlikely - what if the king / queen died suddenly, or some other event? It's almost unheard of for currency coins to be issued early (even the 1968 bronze coins in the blue wallets weren't current).

That's the opposite situation that Peck mentioned. My question was whether any coins were struck in a year with the following year's date.

Unlikely becasue that would risk having predated coins in circulation which by definition should be rejected by the person paid if they are half awake.

Agreed.

What about all the ones they struck for Edward who abdcicated, werent they pre dated or such as they had to melt them down ?.

They were busy striking 1936 Geo V coins like there was no tomorrow (which is why they are so common). The only Edwards that survived were a few specimen brass 3ds, and a few ultra rare proofs. His main coinage would have been issued in 1937 if he hadn't abdicated - note that George VI used Edward's reverse for farthing, halfpenny, penny, brass 3d, shilling, and florin. The sixpence and silver 3d were totally redesigned which is probably why the George VI designs are so cruddy. The halfcrown used a slightly modified George V reverse. As for the obverse, it needed little more than a name change - the two portraits are virtually identical. That's probably why George VI's first year issues were able to be issued pretty promptly.

That's the opposite situation that Peck mentioned. My question was whether any coins were struck in a year with the following year's date.

Unlikely becasue that would risk having predated coins in circulation which by definition should be rejected by the person paid if they are half awake.

Ok, that sounds plausible. Surely though, they would at least have made a headstart producing some dies for the new year? Or wouldn't they know what the demand would be at that point.

Yes they would start preparing dies, provided they had already identified a minting need. But with 1849 and 1850 mintages both given as low, it is quite possible that a mintage need hadn't been identified - it may have been a rush job, last minute.

[Nick]

Do you know whether they also minted in advance eg minted 1851 coins in 1850? I'm guessing they probably would in the situation where the last die of a particular year broke/wore out near the end of the year.

Unlikely - what if the king / queen died suddenly, or some other event? It's almost unheard of for currency coins to be issued early (even the 1968 bronze coins in the blue wallets weren't current).

I guess there may be a difference between coins minted and coins released into circulation. Perhaps, if coins were minted in advance they wouldn't be released until the year they were intended for - to avoid the situations you mentioned.

[davidrj]

We always need to remember this was an Imperial coinage. There may have been no need for an issue in the UK, but a late request comes in from one of the colonies,

1951 Penny is the well known one

David

[Peckris]

We always need to remember this was an Imperial coinage. There may have been no need for an issue in the UK, but a late request comes in from one of the colonies,

1951 Penny is the well known one

David

And 1950.

Also don't forget that Edward VIII coins were actually issued in some African colonies.

[Dave541]

Probably have an 1850 shilling from collection inherited from Gerald (George)Sommerville

[Debbie]

I see that there's another one appeared on Ebay. What do you think about this one?

link

[Paulus]

I see that there's another one appeared on Ebay. What do you think about this one?

link

I hate it, rare date or not ... perhaps the seller meant to write 'a little worn' ... toned indeed!!!