Provenance of some rare coins ?

[numismatist]

I was into Coins in the 1960's to 1970's , but had other interests that kept me busy until I retired

I've tried to get information from those who certainly know, and although I spend reqularly

with them they wont even acknowledge my emails, presume because no 40% commission for them

by giving information ?

Anyway, I've had access to an old Collection, that I helped build up 1960/70 period and seeing

the notes, I thought it a good idea to check the odd provenance out. Just an handful of coins were added in early 1990 )

So far I can only find the odd few that are Ex famous collections, no tickets were kept and just the odd note

1, Cromwell Shilling Glens 26/09/1973 Ex Symonds ( note says died 1933 ?) , no lot number but UNC written in notes

( Hoping to find Lot number grade and if prior provenance)

2, William IV Proof Crown 1831 Glens 07/10/1991 Ex Willis Lot 555 ( I found similar lot 559 in Spinks sale 2007 )

( I hoped to find how lot 555 was graded and if any prior provenance )

I knew Fred Willis very well and in the Collection are several coins that he sold in 1972 but

sad to say it seems no provenance was noted , except for being Ex Glendinings, sad to say

the violent robbery he suffered in 1976 and never recovered from brought about his death in 1978

3, George I Crown 1726 Glens 30/10/1974 lot 45 ( ex lockett lot 143 and ex sanderson lot 134 )

( hoped to find how it was graded (note says unc) and if any other provenance given )

4, Victoria Gothic Crown Glens 26/09/1973 ( Ex Symonds no lot or grade but unc on note )

( hoping to find Lot Number )

5, George IV Crown 1821 Glens 26/09/1973 (Ex Symonds no lot or grade but note says unc )

( hoping to find lot number )

Appreciate any help if anone has the old Sales catalogues...many thanks.....

[azda]

I was into Coins in the 1960's to 1970's , but had other interests that kept me busy until I retired

I've tried to get information from those who certainly know, and although I spend reqularly

with them they wont even acknowledge my emails, presume because no 40% commission for them

by giving information ?

Anyway, I've had access to an old Collection, that I helped build up 1960/70 period and seeing

the notes, I thought it a good idea to check the odd provenance out. Just an handful of coins were added in early 1990 )

So far I can only find the odd few that are Ex famous collections, no tickets were kept and just the odd note

1, Cromwell Shilling Glens 26/09/1973 Ex Symonds ( note says died 1933 ?) , no lot number but UNC written in notes

( Hoping to find Lot number grade and if prior provenance)

2, William IV Proof Crown 1831 Glens 07/10/1991 Ex Willis Lot 555 ( I found similar lot 559 in Spinks sale 2007 )

( I hoped to find how lot 555 was graded and if any prior provenance )

I knew Fred Willis very well and in the Collection are several coins that he sold in 1972 but

sad to say it seems no provenance was noted , except for being Ex Glendinings, sad to say

the violent robbery he suffered in 1976 and never recovered from brought about his death in 1978

3, George I Crown 1726 Glens 30/10/1974 lot 45 ( ex lockett lot 143 and ex sanderson lot 134 )

( hoped to find how it was graded (note says unc) and if any other provenance given )

4, Victoria Gothic Crown Glens 26/09/1973 ( Ex Symonds no lot or grade but unc on note )

( hoping to find Lot Number )

5, George IV Crown 1821 Glens 26/09/1973 (Ex Symonds no lot or grade but note says unc )

( hoping to find lot number )

Appreciate any help if anone has the old Sales catalogues...many thanks.....

The man for this would be Rob, he has a lot of old catalogues including Glendinnings

[numismatist]

Thanks " asda " lets hope he sees my post then, he sounds like the man I need !

[azda]

Thanks " asda " lets hope he sees my post then, he sounds like the man I need !

If he doesn't send him a PM or he has a website rpcoins.co.uk

[Rob]

I was into Coins in the 1960's to 1970's , but had other interests that kept me busy until I retired

I've tried to get information from those who certainly know, and although I spend reqularly

with them they wont even acknowledge my emails, presume because no 40% commission for them

by giving information ?

Anyway, I've had access to an old Collection, that I helped build up 1960/70 period and seeing

the notes, I thought it a good idea to check the odd provenance out. Just an handful of coins were added in early 1990 )

So far I can only find the odd few that are Ex famous collections, no tickets were kept and just the odd note

1, Cromwell Shilling Glens 26/09/1973 Ex Symonds ( note says died 1933 ?) , no lot number but UNC written in notes

( Hoping to find Lot number grade and if prior provenance)

2, William IV Proof Crown 1831 Glens 07/10/1991 Ex Willis Lot 555 ( I found similar lot 559 in Spinks sale 2007 )

( I hoped to find how lot 555 was graded and if any prior provenance )

I knew Fred Willis very well and in the Collection are several coins that he sold in 1972 but

sad to say it seems no provenance was noted , except for being Ex Glendinings, sad to say

the violent robbery he suffered in 1976 and never recovered from brought about his death in 1978

3, George I Crown 1726 Glens 30/10/1974 lot 45 ( ex lockett lot 143 and ex sanderson lot 134 )

( hoped to find how it was graded (note says unc) and if any other provenance given )

4, Victoria Gothic Crown Glens 26/09/1973 ( Ex Symonds no lot or grade but unc on note )

( hoping to find Lot Number )

5, George IV Crown 1821 Glens 26/09/1973 (Ex Symonds no lot or grade but note says unc )

( hoping to find lot number )

Appreciate any help if anone has the old Sales catalogues...many thanks.....

The man for this would be Rob, he has a lot of old catalogues including Glendinnings

I don't have all the Glens catalogues. I am still missing one from 1974 and have many gaps pre 1950.

Symonds' lots were 1-139, but there were other coins in the sale from other vendors. Provenances for Symonds are a problem, because he was collecting from around 1900 or a bit earlier until he died in 1933. Unless there were tickets included it is virtually impossible to trace the lots from old catalogues due to so few being illustrated - certainly for run of the mill items such as Cromwell shillings, Gothic Crowns and G4 crowns. You can probabaly count on one hand the number of these items illustrated in early catalogues because they are so common, even in high grade.

1. Cromwell shilling lot 94, EF and illustrated. Made £180.

4. 1847 Gothic Crown lot 108, brilliant. Made £320.

5. 1821 Crown lot 106, EF, toned. Made £115.

3. 1726 Crown, EF, toned. Made £500. EF in the Sanderson catalogue and illustrated there. I don't have Lockett's milled catalogue - keep missing out when one becomes available as it is always in demand.

2. 1831 Proof or Pattern Crown. Almost as struck, some faint hairlines and other minor marks, a brilliant frosted proof, nicely toned. Illustrated. Made £3000. Willis had 5 1831 crowns, so tracing it will be difficult even if he is known to have purchased an 1831 crown in a particular sale. I do know it isn't Lingford 535.

I've got spare copies of Willis II and Glens 30/10/1974 for sale, but Symonds is out of stock.

[numismatist]

Thanks " Rob " really grateful for your input, you are a real gentleman, my sincere thanks

[Peckris]

I was into Coins in the 1960's to 1970's , but had other interests that kept me busy until I retired

I've tried to get information from those who certainly know, and although I spend reqularly

with them they wont even acknowledge my emails, presume because no 40% commission for them

by giving information ?

Anyway, I've had access to an old Collection, that I helped build up 1960/70 period and seeing

the notes, I thought it a good idea to check the odd provenance out. Just an handful of coins were added in early 1990 )

So far I can only find the odd few that are Ex famous collections, no tickets were kept and just the odd note

1, Cromwell Shilling Glens 26/09/1973 Ex Symonds ( note says died 1933 ?) , no lot number but UNC written in notes

( Hoping to find Lot number grade and if prior provenance)

2, William IV Proof Crown 1831 Glens 07/10/1991 Ex Willis Lot 555 ( I found similar lot 559 in Spinks sale 2007 )

( I hoped to find how lot 555 was graded and if any prior provenance )

I knew Fred Willis very well and in the Collection are several coins that he sold in 1972 but

sad to say it seems no provenance was noted , except for being Ex Glendinings, sad to say

the violent robbery he suffered in 1976 and never recovered from brought about his death in 1978

3, George I Crown 1726 Glens 30/10/1974 lot 45 ( ex lockett lot 143 and ex sanderson lot 134 )

( hoped to find how it was graded (note says unc) and if any other provenance given )

4, Victoria Gothic Crown Glens 26/09/1973 ( Ex Symonds no lot or grade but unc on note )

( hoping to find Lot Number )

5, George IV Crown 1821 Glens 26/09/1973 (Ex Symonds no lot or grade but note says unc )

( hoping to find lot number )

Appreciate any help if anone has the old Sales catalogues...many thanks.....

The man for this would be Rob, he has a lot of old catalogues including Glendinnings

I don't have all the Glens catalogues. I am still missing one from 1974 and have many gaps pre 1950.

Symonds' lots were 1-139, but there were other coins in the sale from other vendors. Provenances for Symonds are a problem, because he was collecting from around 1900 or a bit earlier until he died in 1933. Unless there were tickets included it is virtually impossible to trace the lots from old catalogues due to so few being illustrated - certainly for run of the mill items such as Cromwell shillings, Gothic Crowns and G4 crowns. You can probabaly count on one hand the number of these items illustrated in early catalogues because they are so common, even in high grade.

1. Cromwell shilling lot 94, EF and illustrated. Made £180.

4. 1847 Gothic Crown lot 108, brilliant. Made £320.

5. 1821 Crown lot 106, EF, toned. Made £115.

3. 1726 Crown, EF, toned. Made £500. EF in the Sanderson catalogue and illustrated there. I don't have Lockett's milled catalogue - keep missing out when one becomes available as it is always in demand.

2. 1831 Proof or Pattern Crown. Almost as struck, some faint hairlines and other minor marks, a brilliant frosted proof, nicely toned. Illustrated. Made £3000. Willis had 5 1831 crowns, so tracing it will be difficult even if he is known to have purchased an 1831 crown in a particular sale. I do know it isn't Lingford 535.

I've got spare copies of Willis II and Glens 30/10/1974 for sale, but Symonds is out of stock.

Is Spink's "Milled Silver Coinage of England" (1925) any good? Apparently every coin listed in it was for sale and the Introduction states "Quite recently we purchased the collection of milled coins of the late Mr. A. Wallis, who had studied the series with very great care. ... Consequently, whilst offering the pieces for sale, we are trying to supply the long felt need of an up to date list of the series ...". And at the bottom of page 4 "N.B. we have catalogued here the finest of each variety that we have in stock at the time. We have cheaper specimens of most types in stock."

[Rob]

Is Spink's "Milled Silver Coinage of England" (1925) any good? Apparently every coin listed in it was for sale and the Introduction states "Quite recently we purchased the collection of milled coins of the late Mr. A. Wallis, who had studied the series with very great care. ... Consequently, whilst offering the pieces for sale, we are trying to supply the long felt need of an up to date list of the series ...". And at the bottom of page 4 "N.B. we have catalogued here the finest of each variety that we have in stock at the time. We have cheaper specimens of most types in stock."

In a nutshell no. The early MSC was indeed a list of coins for sale, but Willis (not Wallis) didn't start collecting until the 1930s. Post-war, the names of winning bidders are included in the priced catalogues, but prior to that you are reliant on hand annotations.

Edited October 10, 2011 by Rob