to all victorian sixpence collectors

[chris]

hi everyone

have just taken delivery of a sixpence and as can be seen its off centre. on close inspection the style of the letters seem... well different.

i have had a small ganders about the tinternet, compared my collection and have not found it simples!!!!!

none of my sixpences have this style unless you go back a reign

the date is 1872 die number 57

one other thing i am wondering is if when they change a reverse die did they change the obverse???

[chris]

date

[Rob]

This looks all wrong. The border should be teeth with a raised rim, but there is no sign of the latter. The fishtail letters don't make sense. The 7 in the date isn't right either, though the die number 7 looks respectable. Not a clue, but it smells a bit fishy. The angled pictures are unhelpful.

Edited January 12, 2011 by Rob

[chris]

This looks all wrong. The border should be teeth with a raised rim, but there is no sign of the latter. The fishtail letters don't make sense. The 7 in the date isn't right either, though the die number 7 looks respectable. Not a clue, but it smells a bit fishy. The angled pictures are unhelpful.

sorry about the photos rob, the coin has a gold/brown tone and i found it hard to catch the detail. will try again with some different light

[chris]

This looks all wrong. The border should be teeth with a raised rim, but there is no sign of the latter. The fishtail letters don't make sense. The 7 in the date isn't right either, though the die number 7 looks respectable. Not a clue, but it smells a bit fishy. The angled pictures are unhelpful.

sorry about the photos rob, the coin has a gold/brown tone and i found it hard to catch the detail. will try again with some different light

some better photos

[chris]

reverse

[scott]

off centre strikes do make things look odd, looks genuine from the toning

[chris]

off centre strikes do make things look odd, looks genuine from the toning

just weighed it at 2.8 grams

i get the edge getting messed up and obviously theres no milling, its just that writing. im still on the look out for this die type with no luck yet. the seller has 100% and seems genuine. someone here has one?....maybe

[Colin G.]

I have seen similar letter styling on Lauer half farthings, and some 1860 farthings (if my memory is correct) and two types of font were listed for Lauer half farthings as plain and decorative. Some examples have similar lettering with fishtailing to the base of the letters, I have had discussions with people about this and it would appear that it is not a font change but caused by metal flow when the coin is struck, the reason why it affects somw coins and not others I am not quite sure about. The same could apply to this misstrike as the metal flows out because of the lack of a collar around the entire coin.

We need a metal/die specialist

[VickySilver]

Could be mint sport or experimentation. I don't have problems with the devices, though Rob certainly is a maestro on this. Lettering curious as well and not like any currency 6ds I have or have seen...2..8 gm is the correct weight.

[Red Riley]

Could be mint sport or experimentation. I don't have problems with the devices, though Rob certainly is a maestro on this. Lettering curious as well and not like any currency 6ds I have or have seen...2..8 gm is the correct weight.

Perhaps it was produced during the process of training up a new operative. Such items would almost invariably have been returned to the melting pot but maybe this one escaped.

Incidentally, I did want to thank Chris for pointing out that the 1883 sixpence I have on my website is actually an unrecorded variety not listed in Rayner or Davies and as such worth rather (OK a lot) more than I was charging.

[Colin G.]

Look closely on the 1820 halfcrown here, and you will see similar fishtailing to the lettering on the brockage side, again presumably because there is no collar in place, not as bad as the sixpence, but you can see the same effect

[Rob]

It isn't metal flow. If a coin is struck without a collar, the metal is forced outwards due to lack of restraint. The corresponding flow lines therefore appear on the bases of the lettering as streaks in the direction of the centre of the coin. All of the obverse legend is sharp, so the shape of the letters is as on the die. There is no movement of similar magnitude on the ends of the T top bar, G top or C top which suggests the tails are by design rather than accident.

Looking at the 7 of the date, the tail is now less curved which looks better and the leaf/berry detail agrees too.

The obverse portrait isn't right for shape. The nose is the wrong profile and the hair between the two fillets is standing too high. This section of hair should follow the general curve assuming this holds for all second head sixpences. The ear detail isn't right either.

It could be a Lauer obverse as Colin suggested, but if so, then the reverse is a very good copy. I'll do some digging and get back if I find anything. Don't hold your breath though.

Edited January 13, 2011 by Rob

[Colin G.]

It isn't metal flow. If a coin is struck without a collar, the metal is forced outwards due to lack of restraint. The corresponding flow lines therefore appear on the bases of the lettering as streaks in the direction of the centre of the coin. All of the obverse legend is sharp, so the shape of the letters is as on the die. There is no movement of similar magnitude on the ends of the T top bar, G top or C top which suggests the tails are by design rather than accident.

That would be true on a coin struck entirely without collar, but in this case it has only been unrestrained on the side where the design has been partially struck which has caused a slip in the design in one direction which has in my opinion caused excessive metal flow in that direction. See my stunning artwork

This is my opinion of why the lettering has taken thse shape it has, and it is also worth noting that the effect gets worse where the distance between lettering and edge of the planchet gets less.

As for the portrait not a clue, could it be the same effect? Has the design slipped making it look unusual?

Edited January 13, 2011 by Colin G.

[VickySilver]

I still have not a bad "feel" about this coin as to it being a Royal Mint product, though the points are well taken. Lettering odd, and somehow I cannot accept it as solely due to the metal flow as there are areas pointed out that demonstrate the characteristic that should not be subjected to such movement.

I love the toning and overall appearance. Is this coin slabbed?

[chris]

I still have not a bad "feel" about this coin as to it being a Royal Mint product, though the points are well taken. Lettering odd, and somehow I cannot accept it as solely due to the metal flow as there are areas pointed out that demonstrate the characteristic that should not be subjected to such movement.

I love the toning and overall appearance. Is this coin slabbed?

some good information from across the board and thanks everyone for the input. anymore opinions would be greatly appreciated.

i have been trundling about and had found another example, different date but cannot find it again... this had the usual type face lettering though....i will find it again and update

the coin is in a capsule and not slabbed. i keep all milled and early milled in capsules and me hammereds are all out just in trays oh and im waiting for those 2x2 flips to come through for my decimal which is taking too much space in my box

[chris]

It isn't metal flow. If a coin is struck without a collar, the metal is forced outwards due to lack of restraint. The corresponding flow lines therefore appear on the bases of the lettering as streaks in the direction of the centre of the coin. All of the obverse legend is sharp, so the shape of the letters is as on the die. There is no movement of similar magnitude on the ends of the T top bar, G top or C top which suggests the tails are by design rather than accident.

That would be true on a coin struck entirely without collar, but in this case it has only been unrestrained on the side where the design has been partially struck which has caused a slip in the design in one direction which has in my opinion caused excessive metal flow in that direction. See my stunning artwork

This is my opinion of why the lettering has taken thse shape it has, and it is also worth noting that the effect gets worse where the distance between lettering and edge of the planchet gets less.

As for the portrait not a clue, could it be the same effect? Has the design slipped making it look unusual?

i really liked red rileys comment with the operative induction training die that would have been cool

but ive been sitting down and compared different coins of the same date and i am going on Colins theory.

if you look at the good photos i uploaded you can see the metal has spread out at twelve and six o clock. this is where the most prominent fishtails are due to lack of metal

where as 9 o clock on the coin has the least ammount of spread thus details can be seen as it pretty much should