Upcoming Colin Cooke Sale?

[1949threepence]

What do readers think of the bidding STARTING at low estimate? It is therefore de facto reserve at that price - I might even prefer an unannounced reserve and see where the bidding takes the prices.

I think it's a good idea, and more attractive to buyers than starting with a relatively high stated reserve price from which the bidding must then commence.

Unannounced reserves always strike me as a bit sneaky. The bidding ends and it's then stated that the reserve price has not been met. Annoying.

[scott]

i have an issue with the 1913...because its worn and £2.... and i'm quite into my pennies atm... so curiosity..

[Gary D]

i have an issue with the 1913...because its worn and £2.... and i'm quite into my pennies atm... so curiosity..

It's the 1+B mule, I also have one in about the same condition. It's supposed to be scarse but I've found it harder to find than the 176 which is rated rare.

[Peckris]

i have an issue with the 1913...because its worn and £2.... and i'm quite into my pennies atm... so curiosity..

£2 would be fair for that variety in that state - I would go for it scott! (I have a 1+A and a 2+B in high grades, so they are enough for me.)

[scott]

thats great.. i might as well then, i have no idea what the differances are between the types, cant find much on george V types, but the information would be great for searching deep into the depths of dealers and ebay

[DaveG38]

thats great.. i might as well then, i have no idea what the differances are between the types, cant find much on george V types, but the information would be great for searching deep into the depths of dealers and ebay

Scott,

Giving myself a plug here, but you need a copy of my book 'The Identification of British 20th Century Bronze Coin Varieties' for information about the different types!! Only £6.99 plus P&P.

[Peckris]

thats great.. i might as well then, i have no idea what the differances are between the types, cant find much on george V types, but the information would be great for searching deep into the depths of dealers and ebay

Quick rundown :

Obverse A (1911-13) : high but narrow rim, head in sharp detailed relief, colon after IMP points to a tooth, lower colon dot between GRA BRITT nearer the A

Obverse B (1913-21) : lower but slightly wider rim, head less "sharp", colon after IMP doesn't point to a tooth, lower colon dot between GRA BRITT almost touches both letters, more border teeth

Reverse A (1911-13) : very similar to final Ed VII reverse

Reverse B (1913-26) : design very slightly smaller and rim slightly wider, more ripples above wave bottom right of shield, date numerals slightly closer, more border teeth; (Britannia's face, breast, shoulders and upper arms are nearly always not properly struck up on this reverse - due to the high relief of the obverse)

It's important to note that these variations are very difficult to separate at a glance, especially if the coin is less than EF. The differences are quite subtle, which is quite possibly why they are not collected as enthusiastically as they might be. And as none of them is truly rare (like the 1915 TT farthing), they do tend to be overlooked. If you have a high grade 1911 and a high grade 1913-1926, you could use them for comparison. (You can see from this picture how difficult it is):

(Oops sorry DaveG - you hadn't posted when I began preparing my reply )

Edited September 21, 2009 by Peckris

[scott]

yea not much in it.. thats probably why its not well documented

[Peckris]

yea not much in it.. thats probably why its not well documented

I got the information from Freeman.

[AardHawk]

Peck lists all four variants as well.

[scott]

ahh ok, i have 2 1913 pennies already

both 2+A

going off colon pointing and date spacing anyway

Edited September 22, 2009 by scott

[Peckris]

ahh ok, i have 2 1913 pennies already

both 2+A

going off colon pointing and date spacing anyway

the easiest way to spot the reverses is to look at the wave below the shield on the right - if there are 3 ripples, it's Reverse B. Also you tend to find that Reverse A has hardly any rim at all and the teeth are disappearing off the edge, compared to Rev B.

[Gary D]

ahh ok, i have 2 1913 pennies already

both 2+A

going off colon pointing and date spacing anyway

the easiest way to spot the reverses is to look at the wave below the shield on the right - if there are 3 ripples, it's Reverse B. Also you tend to find that Reverse A has hardly any rim at all and the teeth are disappearing off the edge, compared to Rev B.

By far the easiest way to tell the reverses is to look at the 1st 1 in the date. Rev A to tooth and big teeth. Rev B 1 to space and more teeth and finer.

[davidrj]

Yes, I'm totally stumped by Lot 5 - you can easily see it's a beaded reverse, but the obverse? And an estimate of over £200?? Interestingly, there are no bids on it yet.

Someone thought it was worth £400! I must recheck my junk box

[davidrj]

and who would have looked twice at lot#142 !!!! must be the ugliest E8 penny ever, looks like fire damage

BMC 2214. F 164A. Dies 1*+C. Near Fine, buckled. Rare - 17 bids and now up to £480 - anyone here ever seen one of these?

[DaveG38]

and who would have looked twice at lot#142 !!!! must be the ugliest E8 penny ever, looks like fire damage

BMC 2214. F 164A. Dies 1*+C. Near Fine, buckled. Rare - 17 bids and now up to £480 - anyone here ever seen one of these?

Well its a fairly rare variety, although Freeman only classifies it as R5. The latest version of Freeman (2006) gives a price of £300 for one in fine condition, so allow a bit more for it now being 2009. However, would you pay £400+ for that coin in that state? I'm not even sure its as genuinely rare as is claimed for it, since Freeman R5 isn't exactly rare. There are probably a good many out there still in the boxes of unwanted well worn junk that nobody can be bothered to sort through. My recommendation would be for forum users to go through their boxes of junk - you never know.

[scott]

whats the dyes... seems hell of a lot of money for something so ugly

how rare is R5?

[Peckris]

and who would have looked twice at lot#142 !!!! must be the ugliest E8 penny ever, looks like fire damage

BMC 2214. F 164A. Dies 1*+C. Near Fine, buckled. Rare - 17 bids and now up to £480 - anyone here ever seen one of these?

Well its a fairly rare variety, although Freeman only classifies it as R5. The latest version of Freeman (2006) gives a price of £300 for one in fine condition, so allow a bit more for it now being 2009. However, would you pay £400+ for that coin in that state? I'm not even sure its as genuinely rare as is claimed for it, since Freeman R5 isn't exactly rare. There are probably a good many out there still in the boxes of unwanted well worn junk that nobody can be bothered to sort through. My recommendation would be for forum users to go through their boxes of junk - you never know.

Are you sure it isn't that extra variety that Gouby records - the intermediate obverse? If so I understand it is VERY rare (Freeman R5 isn't really rare at all).

[Gary D]

and who would have looked twice at lot#142 !!!! must be the ugliest E8 penny ever, looks like fire damage

BMC 2214. F 164A. Dies 1*+C. Near Fine, buckled. Rare - 17 bids and now up to £480 - anyone here ever seen one of these?

Well its a fairly rare variety, although Freeman only classifies it as R5. The latest version of Freeman (2006) gives a price of £300 for one in fine condition, so allow a bit more for it now being 2009. However, would you pay £400+ for that coin in that state? I'm not even sure its as genuinely rare as is claimed for it, since Freeman R5 isn't exactly rare. There are probably a good many out there still in the boxes of unwanted well worn junk that nobody can be bothered to sort through. My recommendation would be for forum users to go through their boxes of junk - you never know.

Are you sure it isn't that extra variety that Gouby records - the intermediate obverse? If so I understand it is VERY rare (Freeman R5 isn't really rare at all).

I don't know but it's the 1st one I've ever seen for sale.

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

Here is my specimen...

I sold my old specimen which was in worse condition (damaged planchet) than the Crocker specimen for about what the current bid plus premium is right now.

Obverse....

[Bronze & Copper Collector]

Reverse

[scott]

gawd thats nice... i really do need to find a book which explains all these types..

[DaveG38]

gawd thats nice... i really do need to find a book which explains all these types..

Hi Scott,

Second plug for my book, which explains all the identified characteristics of 20C coins where there are known varieties. What I have done is taken the differing identifiers from a wide variety of sources and matched them up so that all the characteristics for a type are listed, together with extensive photographs. The idea is to allow collectors of 20C bronze to identify with certainty any varieties they have, rather than have to try and reconcile the different descriptors from different sources, something which is confusing to say the least.

I have also included the descriptors of the very minor types (what I call minor varieties) where these have been reported. There are a surprising number of these for some dates. I have also included the flaws in coins which have become varieties in their own right in the eyes of collectors. e.g. the 1946 penny with an extra dot.

[Peckris]

I have also included the flaws in coins which have become varieties in their own right in the eyes of collectors. e.g. the 1946 penny with an extra dot.

Do try to persuade ChrisP to include it in CCGB! I've tried but so far, no luck (oh well, time will tell...). I did persuade Spink to include it in the Standard Catalogue, so that's good at least.

[DaveG38]

I have also included the flaws in coins which have become varieties in their own right in the eyes of collectors. e.g. the 1946 penny with an extra dot.

Do try to persuade ChrisP to include it in CCGB! I've tried but so far, no luck (oh well, time will tell...). I did persuade Spink to include it in the Standard Catalogue, so that's good at least.

Peckris,

Chris has a copy of my book and I am happy for him to include any of the varieties I have described, either in CCGB or the new 'Peck.' I guess its up to him what he wants to include. One issue through is what constitutes a 'genuine' variety and what has been accepted as one, even though its technically arisen as a flaw. It may be that Chris only wants to include those types which have arisen through design changes or where dies have been repaired following damage.