1918 KN pennies

[davidrj]

Not sure whether this is the right place to post this, as I think these are clashed dies rather than die varieties

First image shows a flaw half way up the trident stem

The second image has the same flaw, but very strange flaw on and below George's ear, there are also two die cracks on the 2nd G of Georgius and the E of dei

I seem to remember that Peck mentions a "birds foot flaw" but I've never seen it illustrated in any of the catalogues

[1949threepence]

The "bird's foot flaw" presumably being the odd partially filled indent below the King's ear on your second example ?

I've never seen the trident flaw until now. Does it only occur on KN's maybe due to some die fault at the King's Norton factory ?

[davidrj]

The "bird's foot flaw" presumably being the odd partially filled indent below the King's ear on your second example ?

I don't have a copy of Peck to check, but I think it must be

I've never seen the trident flaw until now. Does it only occur on KN's maybe due to some die fault at the King's Norton factory ?

I hadn't noticed it before I took the pictures last night, I think it's fairly common, at least one on the current batch on Ebay

Clashed die rather than ghosting methinks, my coin 2 was probably the die about to die

[scott]

those other things are dye cracks though, so perhaps some dye wear

[davidrj]

I seem to remember that Peck mentions a "birds foot flaw" but I've never seen it illustrated in any of the catalogues

David Groom's excellant new book arrived yesterday, and the bird's foot is illustrated!

Interestingly he states it is found in lots of years for GeorgeV pennies. I wonder if others are associated with die cracks, and whether there is any correlation with the degree of ghosting on the reverse.

[Guest GRINTals]

ok this is good then we already got a few people. Maybe you can figure out how long it would take mot mail it to... wait who do you guys want to mail all these pennies to? we have to have a 100 agreement or this wont work.

[Nordle11]

Picked up a better grade 1918kn today and just noticed it's got the bird's foot flaw. Then upon finding this thread, I noticed that it's also got the trident flaw and the same die cracks as David's second coin.

Did anything come of this? I see everywhere that these "occur on around 10%" of the 1918kns but not much else.

Does anyone recognise this flaw as a variety on here?

[davidrj]

It,s one of those oddities of collecting, this one doesn't appear in Freeman or Gouby, and is only in Peck as a footnote, so tends to be ignored, whilst the 1897 and 1946 dot pennies are far less dramatic but attract a premium as they appear in listings.

I think definitely a die clash

I wonder if anyone has looked to see whether the bird's foot occurs with both the wide and narrow KN types, both your coin and mine are wide KN

[Nordle11]

Thanks for the solid advice David!

Interesting point about the wide and narrow KN type, I'll have a little look later through ebay and see if I can deduce anything from a quick scan of what's on there.

[secret santa]

Can you give me details of David's new book please. Ta.

[Nordle11]

Rash, that was a 2009 post, I think it's still the same book..

[davidrj]

Rash, that was a 2009 post, I think it's still the same book..

link

[Nordle11]

Well it's bloody difficult telling a wide and narrow KN apart from eBay pictures!

Is this one a narrow KN? If so it has the flaw as well.

[davidrj]

I think that's another wide one, we are talking micro-varieties here, I tried searching my stache of duplicates with a loupe and quickly lost the will to live, my scan below of 1918 KN varieties shows the very slight difference in the N relative to border beads, very difficult on worn examples

[Nordle11]

Yeah it's a very small difference, which makes looking at the meagre photos on ebay all that harder to work it out

Thanks David

[PWA 1967]

Yeah it's a very small difference, which makes looking at the meagre photos on ebay all that harder to work it out

Thanks David

Yes ........... its given me headache and sent me cross eyed that one.

[Nordle11]

If it helps, it looks like the N is the distinguishing factor here. The left and right hand serifs, in the wide KN, follow down to between the border teeth whereas the narrow N points to 2 teeth. Pic attached for help.

[PWA 1967]

Thanks for the pictures Nordle and been interesting having a look .

I wont be looking for the other one though.

[secret santa]

Thanks Nordle - didn't notice the date - I 've got the book in question.

[Nordle11]

I seem to remember that Peck mentions a "birds foot flaw" but I've never seen it illustrated in any of the catalogues

David Groom's excellant new book arrived yesterday, and the bird's foot is illustrated!

Interestingly he states it is found in lots of years for GeorgeV pennies. I wonder if others are associated with die cracks, and whether there is any correlation with the degree of ghosting on the reverse.

I found a 1913 penny today, with the same birds foot flaw. And when I play with the pictures of my example I can get the folds in the dress to match up against the neck flaw, it's got to be a clashed die.

But I'd never seen this flaw on anything other than the 1918kn, so this is a first for me.

Pictures attached of the 1913 and also my comparison shots. (the yellow is from the reverse, which overlays the flaw indentically). Just in case anyone else finds it interesting!

[PWA 1967]

Topcarp has a 1877 penny for sale that is similar on ebay.

Sorry cant put the link up.

[PWA 1967]

That overlay picture is impressive Matt hat off.

[Nordle11]

Topcarp has a 1877 penny for sale that is similar on ebay.

Sorry cant put the link up.

Thanks Pete.

Here's the link to that penny (I follow Topcarp he always has great coins), and that's MUCH more like a birds foot than the GV exmaples..

Didn't know it extended to Victorian series too though, is there any literature on it? This must be a die clash too, it's a lot more obvious where it came from on this type.

Edited October 29, 2015 by Nordle11

[secret santa]

Topcarp has a 1877 penny for sale that is similar on ebay.

Sorry cant put the link up.

Thanks Pete.

Here's the link to that penny (I follow Topcarp he always has great coins), and that's MUCH more like a birds foot than the GV exmaples..

Didn't know it extended to Victorian series too though, is there any literature on it? This must be a die clash too, it's a lot more obvious where it came from on this type.

I've got a very similar 1877 example on my website and when you see the obverse and reverse side by side, you can easily see how it's caused by a clash with Britannia's robes from another penny's reverse. (Topcarp is John Jerrams I think ?)

[Nordle11]

That you do, well pointed out. Where did you hear/read about this 'crows foot flaw'? I can't find any info on it right now..

And yes, 'tis indeed Mr. Jerrams.