Empire Mints

[big jar of wasps]

Hi Guys,

Can anyone help me out with some information. In relation to the Gold Sovereigns minted in the Empire Mints. I know that the India mint used gold from South Africa and India. But can anyone tell me whether, the Canadian, Australian and South African Mints, used indigenous gold or imported gold to mint there sovereigns?

[Chris Perkins]

I don't know if Canada has a gold source, but I'm sure SA, P and S used their own gold.

[big jar of wasps]

Thanks Chris, thats most helpful!!!!

[Chris Perkins]

Is that you with your sovereign collection?

[Peter]

looks like me with some of my farthings

[big jar of wasps]

Is that you with your sovereign collection?

I WISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sylvester]

Is that you with your sovereign collection?

I WISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ha that's only one third of the collection!

[ken46]

Hi Guys,

Can anyone help me out with some information. In relation to the Gold Sovereigns minted in the Empire Mints. I know that the India mint used gold from South Africa and India. But can anyone tell me whether, the Canadian, Australian and South African Mints, used indigenous gold or imported gold to mint there sovereigns?

Its a mixed "bag" of sovereigns, as it were. Sovereigns from So. Africa, Canada and the three

Australian were definitely predominately indigenous gold. In fact these were the primary sources

of gold for the Royal Mint.

Alot of the Indian gold was imported as you surmized but as an another example the Sydney and

Melbourne mints minted shield sovereigns off and on from 1871 thru 1887. The shield was more

acceptable for trade with India as the dragon being slayed was offensive. These pieces started

off as Aust. gold but at a point became India gold.

A ship captain or anyone else could walk into any of the mints with a bag of "gold"--any kind of

gold coin, nuggets or gold dust and have it traded for new gold coins on the spot.

It was the practice of all the mints (Royal and Imp.) to melt down worn coins for new mintages.

[Emperor Oli]

The shield was more acceptable for trade with India as the dragon being slayed was offensive.

How interesting. I never thought of that!

[Guest Aidan Work]

Canada did strike Sovereigns,but only between 1908 & 1919.These have a 'C' mintmark.The Indian ones have an 'I' mintmark.This is dated 1918.

Aidan.

[scottishmoney]

At one time I endeavoured to collect a Sovereign from every country that minted one. I know I had Australia, South Africa, Britain of course, but I never got India or Canada. One of my family members has an 1877 Sovereign, which legend has it that it came with the family from Cornwall in 1880. Curiously it was minted in Australia and somehow made it to Britain to be shipped yet again across the Atlantic. The only coin I have that came down from the Cornwall ancestors is an 1862 1/2d.

[Guest Aidan Work]

Scottishmoney,you won't get an Indian Sovereign (Bombay Mint),as they are actually an extrmely rare coin.The Canadian ones are very seldom seen.I have never seen one.I have seen a couple of South African 1/2 Sovereigns.It is the Aussie Sovereigns & 1/2 Sovereigns that usually crop up over here in New Zealand.

A few years ago,I bought a worn Aussie 1865 1/2 Sovereign as if it was a scrap gold coin.It has a very distinctive portrait of Queen Victoria,& an equally distinctive reverse with the name 'SYDNEY MINT'.I told my boss's brother,who is also a coin dealer about this coin.He said to me,"Aidan,that is actually a rare date".I replied,"Peter,I actually bought it as if it was a scrap gold coin".

The Sovereigns & 1/2 Sovereigns that were struck at the British Commonwealth mints are regarded as being part of the coinage of Canada,India,Australia,& South Africa.

The Indian Princely State of Travancore also issued their own 1/2 Sovereigns & Sovereigns in the 1880's.Cyprus also issued Sovereigns after independence.The Hutt River Province Principality also issued Sovereigns in 1985 & 1986.

Aidan.

Edited September 12, 2006 by Aidan Work

[Guest E. Dawson]

Ebay over here in the States has the 1918 I Bombay sovs for sale all the time in mint. The better Canadian are the 1913 & 1914 as well as 1909 & 1910 with the '16 very rare and the '08 a spec. set coin. The later bits 1917-1919 are not rare but not common either...

[Guest Aidan Work]

Ebay over here in the States has the 1918 I Bombay sovs for sale all the time in mint. The better Canadian are the 1913 & 1914 as well as 1909 & 1910 with the '16 very rare and the '08 a spec. set coin. The later bits 1917-1919 are not rare but not common either...

E. Dawson,the ones that are often offered are either the Bombay Mint restrikes,or they could be forgeries that jewellers have made using very good gold.It is virtually impossible to find an original 1918I Bombay Mint Sovereign.

Aidan.

[Hussulo]

Ebay over here in the States has the 1918 I Bombay sovs for sale all the time in mint. The better Canadian are the 1913 & 1914 as well as 1909 & 1910 with the '16 very rare and the '08 a spec. set coin. The later bits 1917-1919 are not rare but not common either...

E. Dawson,the ones that are often offered are either the Bombay Mint restrikes,or they could be forgeries that jewellers have made using very good gold.It is virtually impossible to find an original 1918I Bombay Mint Sovereign.

Aidan.

So is it impossible to tell an original from a restrike? and how good are the forgeries?

[Guest E. Dawson]

These would include certified bits that can not as far as I can tell be distinguished from originals. The mintage was not that small originally and as we know the Indians were not averse to reusing original dies for later strikings.

As far as I am concerned if the restrike can not be clearly discerned from the original, that all should be considered the equivalent of the restrikes. To date I have not been taken by jewellry or other repros that I am aware of.

By the way, I might add that I am certainly not a novice and am more than a bit experienced in the British currency coin series.

[Guest Aidan Work]

Ebay over here in the States has the 1918 I Bombay sovs for sale all the time in mint. The better Canadian are the 1913 & 1914 as well as 1909 & 1910 with the '16 very rare and the '08 a spec. set coin. The later bits 1917-1919 are not rare but not common either...

E. Dawson,the ones that are often offered are either the Bombay Mint restrikes,or they could be forgeries that jewellers have made using very good gold.It is virtually impossible to find an original 1918I Bombay Mint Sovereign.

Aidan.

So is it impossible to tell an original from a restrike? and how good are the forgeries?

Hussulo,the Bombay Mint had a practice of restriking rare coins on demand,not only the 1918I Sovereign,but other gold pieces such as the 1 Mohur & 2 Mohurs of the 1835 issue.Fortunately,that abominable practice was stopped in around 1970.

Aidan.

[Guest E. Dawson]

These (1918I) sovs are really not worth faking numismatically. I would weigh the piece and see if it looks close and count it as the real thing. Nerds can do specific gravity testing if they like as well....

[ken46]

I have been collecting sovereigns seriously for over 20 years and would like to make several comments.

Both British and Imperial sovereigns of the 20th century from all the mints are very easy to come by in

"English grading EF or better" if your just looking for any date. It is certainly true that most mints do

have rare dates. The Indian mint being the exception as they only minted the 1918I and it is certainly

not rare.

Please keep in mind, after WWI gold coins were not used as much for everyday trade and were largely

kept by banks or treasury's as reserves. So a signifant number of coins were never "circulated" as such.

Are there forgeries and restrikes? YES!

These are two different issues so the forgeries first. Most are pretty easy to tell by their apparence,

color, weight or edge graining. I have even seen several nice looking Victorian sovs. that were hard

for me to tell the difference. But I will say that most of the experts who make a living at this

can spot a forgery right off. So I think it unlikely there are to many out there floating around.

I will give an example that is the exception. Many years ago I was offered an 1817 plain edge proof.

Now this was a very expensive coin and I sent it to Spink for verification. It took them perhaps

two years to verify that it was a forgery.

Restrikes are different. Let me first comment on the Indian Mint seperately. If the 1918I was

restruck it is not commonly known. Is it possible, of course. Paraphrasing E. Dawson, if it

looks like a duck and weighs like a duck then it must be a duck. Who cares!

Now, I happen to have a slabbed 1918I proof, a slabbed specimen and an uncirculated piece.

I also have slabbed 1918I 15 Rupee proof pieces. Because of color they can be identified

as restrikes from 1950 and 1968. Theese are same weight and size of sovereigns.

Let me now specifically address the Royal mint. The only common sovereign I know that was

restruck is the 1925 piece. They were restruck in 1949, 1951 and 1952.

When it comes to special pieces-Una and the Lion-comes to mind as it was struck at various

times during the 19th century and given at special occasions. Each can be identified by

experts because of the collar that was used. I also have a 1839 proof sovereign that was

minted in the 1870'S as a presentation piece.

Anyone who is intrested in sovereigns should get some or all of the following books:

The Gold Sovereign by Michael A. Marsh

Coins of England & The United Kingdom Spink

The Sovereign by Daniel Fearon and Brian Reeds

Collecting And Investing In Auatrailian Coins And Banknotes by Greg McDonald

[Guest Aidan Work]

Ken46,what do you mean that the 1918I Sovereign isn't rare? I have never seen one in the 9 years I have been working in the numismatic trade.There's a very good chance that most of the ones sold are the Bombay Mint restrikes.

Aidan.

[ken46]

Aidan, Please document in some way that there are a siginificant number of 1918I restrikes. I said

it is possible to have some and even documented examples of other pieces restruck. But

apparently the grading services don't know anything about it nor do the big houses in London nor do

any of the reference books I listed. With a mintage of almost 1.3 million pieces and very few

being used in the Western world as currency I could easily see how great numbers survived to this

date. Ken

[Guest Aidan Work]

Aidan, Please document in some way that there are a siginificant number of 1918I restrikes. I said

it is possible to have some and even documented examples of other pieces restruck. But

apparently the grading services don't know anything about it nor do the big houses in London nor do

any of the reference books I listed. With a mintage of almost 1.3 million pieces and very few

being used in the Western world as currency I could easily see how great numbers survived to this

date. Ken

Ken46,Krause does make a note of which gold pieces have been restruck.The 1835 1 Mohur & 2 Mohurs have been restruck,as have the 1918I Sovereign,but the numbers of the restrikes are not known,as records weren't kept of the number struck.

Aidan.

[ken46]

Aidan, You are correct that Krause does list restrikes for 1918I. Please note the restrikes are listed

as proof-like. This probably indicates to me small numbers were minted for numismatic purposes.

Is there any other way to distinguish the pieces other than proof-like? The 1925 British pieces

were struck with a different collar so the edge graining is different and you can tell the

restrikes from the original. But even so, who cares about the difference.

Two more books I have found to help with gaining knowledge about sovereigna are:

The History Of The Gold Sovereign Sir Geoffrey Duveen and H. G. Stride

Royal Sovereign 1489-1989 Edited By G. P. Dyer Librarian and Curator, Royal Mint

[ken46]

Aidan, I guess I can answer my own question. I care as I have been trying to collect all the varieties and

oddities of the Sovereign since 1816.

The three 1918I's have different edge graining. The speciman and proof have very crisp flat toped

edges that go to their base at an angle but all is "square looking". My regular minted piece which

was a slabbed MS64 has the initial appearance of having a rounded top of the grain. This is not

true when I got out my 10X glass. Not as crisp but flat on top. Just enough wearing to make

it look slightly rounded. The three 15 Rupee's all have a much wider and bolder grain. Very easy

to call them blocks.

Just looking at various Geo. VI pieces from all the other mints I did not see much difference in the

type graining. The 1925 piece that was restruck has a finer grain. I guess I'll start looking at

18I's to see if I ever see anything different. Ken

[Guest Aidan Work]

You have also got to be very careful with the South African 1/2 Sovereign & Sovereign.Krause mentions that forgeries also exist for these coins.

Aidan.