F over E?

[absence of uniformity]

Hi,

I cant find any info on a known variety F over E  which would read PFENNY on a Halfpenny coin.

Please look closely at the attached image. Does it look like F over E? The reason I dont think its just grease filled die is the defined line marked in red in the second image.

Many thanks

Edited 17 hours ago by absence of uniformity

[absence of uniformity]

ONF 1860

[absence of uniformity]

1862 PFENNY

[absence of uniformity]

1 hour ago, absence of uniformity said:

Hi,

I cant find any info on a known variety F over E  which would read PFENNY on a Halfpenny coin.

Please look closely at the attached image. Does it look like F over E? The reason I dont think its just grease filled die is the defined line marked in red in the second image.

Many thanks

What's a bit confusing is the visible underlying letter plus the defined line in shown in Red on the second drawing. Has a worker punched the letter F in an attempt to repair part of the E?

Edited 16 hours ago by absence of uniformity

[absence of uniformity]

On the subject of the Halfpenny I purchased this coin, poor images I know but looks like HALP.

[secret santa]

It's not PFENNY - it's PFNNY

[absence of uniformity]

5 minutes ago, secret santa said:

It's not PFENNY - it's PFNNY

Yes I know, was too late to edit once I noticed my mistake. 

[absence of uniformity]

9 minutes ago, secret santa said:

It's not PFENNY - it's PFNNY

I have noticed people are very quick here to tell you something it is not. Which may suggest it's looking good for this F being manually punched over a E... or is it?

 

[jelida]

Die letter repairs such as this are fairly commonplace in the early years, they on occasion used a suitable punch eg F, L, I to restore a filled die when the full letter was not deemed necessary. Gouby covers these with examples in his book. When clear these are interesting but not especially desirable unless an erroneous letter/number has been used - P /E, R/B, G/C etc.

Jerry

Edited 11 hours ago by jelida
Addition

[absence of uniformity]

15 minutes ago, jelida said:

Die letter repairs such as this are fairly commonplace in the early years, they on occasion used a suitable punch eg F, L, I to restore a filled die when the full letter was not deemed necessary. Gouby covers these with examples in his book. When clear these are interesting but not especially desirable unless an erroneous letter/number has been used - P /E, R/B, G/C etc.

Jerry

Ok thank you for explaining that.

 

[absence of uniformity]

35 minutes ago, jelida said:

Die letter repairs such as this are fairly commonplace in the early years, they on occasion used a suitable punch eg F, L, I to restore a filled die when the full letter was not deemed necessary. Gouby covers these with examples in his book. When clear these are interesting but not especially desirable unless an erroneous letter/number has been used - P /E, R/B, G/C etc.

Jerry

Somebody did find this 1860 coin desirable having parted with £260 on it. But most likely because it has a freeman or Gouby number associated to it. The 1862 PFNNY which was unrecorded by both and a better condition coin only made £29..

[jelida]

Personally I don’t consider the ‘ONF’ Penny a true variety, it is simply a case of die fill and I don’t have one in my collection. However as you say it was described in Freeman - though not deserving of a Freeman number- many years ago and this seems to have lead to it becoming collectable.

Jerry

[absence of uniformity]

6 hours ago, absence of uniformity said:

Hi,

I cant find any info on a known variety F over E  which would read PFENNY on a Halfpenny coin.

Please look closely at the attached image. Does it look like F over E? The reason I dont think its just grease filled die is the defined line marked in red in the second image.

Many thanks

For my own collection not taking into account desirability a die characteristic that shows some distinctive feature / difference to the normal design added intentionally whether the outcome was correct or not is a variety.

 

[absence of uniformity]

17 minutes ago, jelida said:

Personally I don’t consider the ‘ONF’ Penny a true variety, it is simply a case of die fill and I don’t have one in my collection. However as you say it was described in Freeman - though not deserving of a Freeman number- many years ago and this seems to have lead to it becoming collectable.

Jerry

Agree and with my coin if the worker did? punch an F over E for me that's where this coin does become a variety the human involvement in changing the die.

Edited 10 hours ago by absence of uniformity

[absence of uniformity]

2 hours ago, jelida said:

Die letter repairs such as this are fairly commonplace in the early years, they on occasion used a suitable punch eg F, L, I to restore a filled die when the full letter was not deemed necessary. Gouby covers these with examples in his book. When clear these are interesting but not especially desirable unless an erroneous letter/number has been used - P /E, R/B, G/C etc.

Jerry

Given the letter is not an E and an F was used although intentional its erroneous is it not?

[absence of uniformity]

[jelida]

1 hour ago, absence of uniformity said:

Given the letter is not an E and an F was used although intentional its erroneous is it not?

Not if use of the alternate letter was intentional, as I explain above it’s just part of day to day maintenance of a die. And also difficult to prove it’s not just partial die fill of the lower limb of the ‘E’ . But it’s a grey area in that some collectors enthuse about mis-strikes and die flaws, incidental dots and dashes and the like. To my mind a true variety is a deliberate planned change in the design on the die, the flan (weight, metal composition, polishing ) or a significant accidental change through the act of man. Obvious date width differences might just creep in in the later years when die to die differences were rarer.  And not all variations even if rare attract a premium, desirability to collectors plays a major part along with whether published or acknowledged by an accepted expert in the field (Freeman, Gouby, Sessions et al).

Jerry

 

[Eirestan]

Probably a die fill in my opinion. I posted a gun money shilling on here not long back that read RFX instead of REX. Pretty common thing.